Virus's: Life or non life?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by paddoboy, May 20, 2020.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Tegmark cited a perfect example of inscribing his wife's name in his wedding band where the information will last for many years, and inscribing his wife's name in a puddle of water, where the information will almost instantly disappear. I think that's elegant.
     
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  3. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Viruses do not, however, carry out metabolic processes. Most notably, viruses differ from living organisms in that they cannot generate ATP. ... Because of these limitations, viruses can replicate only within a living host cell.
    https://www.nature.com/scitable/top...imitations, viruses,within a living host cell.

    Plugged your question into Google in its entirety and got back the above

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  5. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    We need to understand, if virus is alive and capable to adapt and evolve itself in changed natural or manmade environments and be effective systematically or nón live liable to change chemically by such environments and be effective randomly. One sense of touch do not justify an entity is alive in biological sense because all atoms, molecules, particles etc on this earth can show some changes on touch by others.
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I agree, but viruses are complex organisms when compared to purely chemical patterns. Viruses do stimulate cells to become active in duplication. They can mutate in response to antigens, and may not all be virulent as with virophages, which may actually be beneficial as a natural parasite in larger viruses, inhibiting their efficiency.

    These processes may happen in purely chemical processes as well, such as depletion of the ozone by chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and halons , which may last for years, but eventually escape the ozone layers, whereas viral infections can remain active for hundreds of years.
    So much so, that many living organism's DNA contains latent remnants of virus DNA.

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    Pictured here is an astrocyte, one type of brain cell that plays a role in ALS, the degenerative disease that scientists suspect might be caused by ancient viruses in our DNA. Illustration by Kateryna Kon.

    https://www.cshl.edu/the-non-human-living-inside-of-you/#
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  8. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    I think, we can understand it. If virus progress in a systematic and calculated way, it should be an evolutionary process of live biological entity.But if it move in a random way, it can also be a non live chemical entity.
    It made me to get answer to my one question in my other topic. If some latent remnants of virus remains, then probably it may be a reason to persistence of long term antibodies in body post infection or post infection i.e. to continue antibody mediated immune response against these latent remnants of virus. Otherwise for long term protection from multiple infection Immunological memory is sufficient to deal with. Thanks.

    Btw can we anticipate all virus even Covid 19 virus leave latent remnants of virus post infection?
     
  9. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    " Spontaneous generation is a body of thought on the ordinary formation of living organisms without descent from similar organisms. The theory of spontaneous generation held that living creatures could arise from nonliving matter and that such processes were commonplace and regular. It was hypothesized that certain forms, such as fleas, could arise from inanimate matter such as dust, or that maggots could arise from dead flesh."
    Sorce Wikipedia
    It should be indicating so looking live beings can still come from non living one or dead ones.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Basically that is the theory of Abiogenesis.
    That is of course is completely wrong. Abiogenesis speaks only to something living emerging from complex bio-chemistry, but says nothing about speciation. That comes later, as Darwinian Evolution.
    No, life begins long before fleas or maggots appeared.

    Viruses and bacteria are closer to the first life forms. A single or double bio-chemical polymer arrangement (DNA) that has the blueprint for a living thing such as a bacteria.

    This is where life begins.

    Zooming in on DNA Structure

    1. A molecule of DNA consists of two strands that form a double helix structure.



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    A molecule of DNA has two strands, composed of nucleotides, that form a double helix shape.
    Download DNA Lab Activities

    2. Each DNA strand is composed of nucleotides—units made up of a sugar (deoxyribose), a phosphate group, and a nitrogenous base.

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    3. The sequences of nitrogenous bases on the two strands of a DNA molecule are complementary.
    Why do the nitrogenous bases pair in this specific way? The bases on each strand are joined to the bases on the other strand with hydrogen bonds, but different bases have different chemical structures. Cytosine and thymine (and uracil in RNA) are pyrimidines, containing one ring. Adenine and guanine are purines, containing two rings. The pyrimidines pair with the purines: cytosine and guanine form three hydrogen bonds, and adenine and thymine form two.[/quote]
    4. Specific sequences of nitrogenous bases that code for particular proteins or regulatory RNA molecules are called genes.
    Visible Body Biology
    Learn more
    See more from our free eBook library

    External Sources
    An article from Nature about the genome of Carsonella rudii.

    Details on Chromosome 1 and Chromosome 21 from the US National Library of Medicine’s Genetics Home Reference.

    An article on noncoding DNA from the US National Library of Medicine’s Genetics Home Reference.

    Related Articles
    DNA Overview

    Eukaryotic Chromosomes

    Prokaryotic Chromosomes

    Eukaryotic vs. Prokaryotic Chromosomes

    Glossary

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    A molecule of DNA has two strands, composed of nucleotides, that form a double helix shape.
    Download DNA Lab Activities


    https://www.visiblebody.com/learn/biology/dna-chromosomes/dna-structure
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Interesting tidbit.
    It is thought that viruses lack one of the identifiers of life and that is a cell. But that is not strictly true. The DNA of a virus itself is encased in a cellular sheath.

    Difference between Eukaryotic and Prokaryotic cells

    2. Eukaryotic chromosomes are located within the nucleus, whereas prokaryotic chromosomes are located in the nucleoid.

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    2. Eukaryotic chromosomes are located within the nucleus, whereas prokaryotic chromosomes are located in the nucleoid.

    Note the flagella and cilia already contained in Prokaryote organism, before the emergence of Eukaryotes.

    https://www.visiblebody.com/learn/biology/dna-chromosomes/eukaryotic-vs-prokaryotic

    Prokaryotes and Eukaryotes are distinguished on the basis of their cellular characteristics. ...

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    The important cellular features of (a) a prokaryotic cell (a bacterium) and (b) a eukaryotic cell.

    Note the flagellum and cilia as identified in the Prokaryote organism already present before the emergence of Eukaryotes..


    Viruses are considered neither prokaryotes nor eukaryotes because they lack the characteristics of living things, except the ability to replicate (which they accomplish only in living cells).


    General Properties of Viruses

    Structure
    (
    1. Nucleic acid -contains 3-400 genes

    • Deoxyribonucleic Acid (DNA) -unique features
      • Single and/or double stranded
      • Glycosylated and/or
      • Gaps present in double stranded molecule
      • Circular or linear
      • Bound protein molecules
      • Unique purine and/or pyrimidine bases present
      • Ribonucleotides present

      RNA
      • Single or double stranded
      • Segmented or unsegmented
      • Bound protein molecules
      • Unique purine and/or pyrimidine bases present
    2. Capsid -The capsid accounts for most of the virion mass. It is the protein coat of the virus. It is a complex and highly organized entity which gives form to the virus. Subunits called protomeres aggregate to form capsomeres which in turn aggregate to form the capsid.

    3. Envelope -this is an amorphous structure composed of lipid, protein and carbohydrate which lies to the outside of the capsid. It contains a mosaic of antigens from the host and the virus. A naked virus is one without an envelope.

    4. Spikes. These are glycoprotein projections which have enzymatic and/or adsorption and/or hemagglutinating activity. They arise from the envelope and are highly antigenic.)

    Morphology (Symmetry)
    ( 1. Icosahedral -The protomeres aggregate in groups of five or six to form the capsomere. In electron micrographs, capsomeres are recognized as regularly spaced rings with a central hole. The shape and dimensions of the icosahedron depends on characteristics of its protomeres. All icosahedral capsids have 12 corners each occupied by a penton capsomere and 20 triangular faces, each containing the same number of hexon capsomeres. Icosahedral symmetry is identical to cubic symmetry.

    From Jawetz, R., J.L. Melnick, and E.A. Adelberg, Review of Medical Microbiology, 16th Edition, pp. 347, Figure 27-3. Reproduced with permission.

    2. Helical -The protomeres are not grouped in capsomeres, but are bound to each other so as to form a ribbon-like structure. This structure folds into a helix because the protomeres are thicker at one end than at the other. The diameter of the helical capsid is determined by characteristics of its protomeres, while its length is determined by the length of the nucleic acid it encloses.

    From Jawetz, R., J.L. Melnick, and E.A. Adelberg, Review of Medical Microbiology, 16th Edition, pp. 347, Figure 27-3. Reproduced with permission.

    3. Complex -e.g., that exhibited by poxvirus and rhabdovirus. This group comprises all those viruses which do not fit into either of the above two groups.

    From Jawetz, R., J.L. Melnick, and E.A. Adelberg, Review of Medical Microbiology, 16th Edition, pp. 347, Figure 27-3. Reproduced with permission.)

    ....more; https://www.atsu.edu/faculty/chamberlain/website/tritzmed/LECTS/PROPERT.HTM
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  12. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for giving lot of details. However sorry, I am concentrating on latent remnants of virus of Covid 19. Does/can it happen in case of this Virus?
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That question seems pre-mature.After all Covid 19 is still an active virus.

    Remember Covid 19 is only one of the most recent strains of the Coronavirus family (the 19 stands for 2019)

    How Many Coronaviruses Are There?

    Covid 19.

    https://www.webmd.com/lung/coronavirus-strains#1
     
  14. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Yes it is pre-mature. But persistsnce of long term antibodies for 6 month+ or so slightly hint its possibility.
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure how that works. Antibodies are white blood cells made by the host and have memories of specific viruses and bacteria.
    I am not quite sure if vaccines stimulate the white blood cells to recognize viral organisms or if they are artificially manufactured antibodies.

    Perhaps one of our Medical experts can inform?
     
  16. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    "Activated B cells differentiate into either antibody-producing cells called plasma cells that secrete soluble antibody or memory cells that survive in the body for years afterward in order to allow the immune system to remember an antigen and respond faster upon future exposures.[4]

    At the prenatal and neonatal stages of life, the presence of antibodies is provided by passive immunization from the mother. Early endogenous antibody production varies for different kinds of antibodies, and usually appear within the first years of life. Since antibodies exist freely in the bloodstream, they are said to be part of the humoral immune system. "
    Source, Wikipedia, Antibody /Function
    "Plasma cells, also called plasma B cells, are white blood cells that originate in the bone marrow and secrete large quantities of proteins called antibodies in response to being presented specific substances called antigens. These antibodies are transported from the plasma cells by the blood plasma and the lymphatic system to the site of the target antigen (foreign substance), where they initiate its neutralization or destruction"
    Source Wikipedia Plasma cells
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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  17. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I think "quorum sensing " will be the ultimate solution.

    "confound their language"
    (so that they cannot become virulent)
     
  19. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    Pray so, any effective therapy really come for COVID 19 by this understanding.

    Anyway, virus will not be virulent but still they will not be destructed by such anticipated therapy targeting their quorum sensing.
    Then what will happen?
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Well no, I really mean "confound their language". Viruses talk to each other and specifically to count if there are enough viruses around to be effective when going viral in unison. They do this via chemical language and it is proposed that by confounding the viruses' langue we can stop them from becoming viral in the first place, and no need to kill them which creates evolutionary immunity to vaccines via natural selection.

    When viruses and bacteria are unable to communicate they cannot become viral in unison.
    This form of communication is called "quorum sensing"
     
  21. KUMAR5 Valued Senior Member

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    It is good thing. But what shall happen ultimately to those virus which are neither viral not got killed? Can they become virulent any time in future? Whether confounding their language or disturbing their quorum sensing will just delay the viral effects or cure from these? If delay then will it just be like latent remnants of virus. as you indicated previously?

    Furthur, how can we target their quorum sensing? Do we need to prescribe some medicine or therapy for it? If yes, do we need to maintain this therapy for very long time for virus not to gain strength for such quorum? If any therapy is prescribed, why virus can't become resistant or evolved to this therapy>

    All above questions need to be answered to really understand targeting quorum sensing.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    AFAIK, viruses have an expiration date. If they are unable to communicate they'll be isolated individuals. Don't forget viruses are incredibly small. To a virus the human body is a universe. So if a virus is unable to go nova, it'll just be a bunch of inactive chemicals, maybe absorbed and/or discarded.
    I can explain it, but Bonnie Bassler has a wonderful lecture with diagrams on this subject at TedTalk and got a standing ovation for her clarity and entertaining presentation, as well as her proposition that when we learn to chemically communicate in viral or bacterial words, we can render the organism mute and/or deaf , but also stimulate the beneficial bacteria to become more active when for some reason the are depleted. We already take pro-biotics to compliment our natural symbionts.
    Do go back and watch her lecture, it's really very informative in a general way that clarifies the fundamentals of quorum sensing.
    She also has a much longer lecture at Cornell U. where she goes into more detail and advanced state of the science.

    Visualize this: you go to a lecture that will give you needed information for your exam, but someone plugs your ears with earplugs and you wont understand a word of the lecture. Hence, you cannot take the exam and have to forfeit and you won't matriculate. If all the students get earplugs, no one can pass the exam and matriculate. The entire class fails.
    In principle it is not that complicated. As with all languages, all we need is to learn the chemical words so that we can insert a "bad' spelling along with the bacterium's own chatter and thereby confuse the other bacteria and prevent them from achieving a "quorum" which is required to trigger virulence. This way we do not kill them and thus select for resistance. We just let them die and become absorbed by our defensive mechanisms or remain dormant as deaf or mute strains. The beauty is that they never get a chance to mutate. They never become active at all!
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  23. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    Thanks.

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    I wasn’t really asking that question; the rhetorical nature of my post was obviously not apparent. It’s been well-known for a long time that viruses are insert and don’t metabolize on their own. They are just nucleic acid in a protein capsid (case). I was trying to gently point out to the poster that line of reasoning is erroneous (viruses generating ATP).
     
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