Was Cho Seung-hui decision rational or irrational?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by draqon, Apr 19, 2007.

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Was Cho Seung-hui's decision rational or irrational?

  1. rational

    42.4%
  2. irrational

    57.6%
  1. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

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    Read-Only, it's clear you are far beyond any reasoning when you decide to put emotions in front of your logic. Especially in a more formal discussion regarding Cho's sanity.

    I request that you go and calm yourself down, and remove your emotional attachments to this thread. Otherwise, continuing would be useless. In that event, just stop posting.

    Similarly, you are Soap-boxing. I advise that you rectify this ignorant behavior before it ruins what you might have learned.
     
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  3. Nickelodeon Banned Banned

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    I thought Read-Only had decided to read only.
     
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  5. draqon Banned Banned

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    joined up with write-only and now they are both read-&-write-only
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I thought this thread was about Cho Seung Hui
     
  8. draqon Banned Banned

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    it's nice to talk about other important aspects of life than the culprits of society. Wanna chat?
     
  9. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    Haven't been on for a few days so I'm a bit late...but I felt inclined to respond to this:

    This is utter crap. If you want to stick with scifi, Klingons also have a "code of warrior conduct" that is CLEARLY emotive. They are an irrational, violent race...whose intents are often good though.

    Robocop is a cyborg with a human brain, who has demonstrated emotions.

    Bushido is a guide yes, but sticking to a guide requires some sort of loyalty and determination...all emotive. Being a warrior in and of itself is also irrational, when logically ambassadorial endeavours (negotiations etc) are less risky.

    BTW humans are NOT Robocop, they do not have prime directives.

    You are attempting to justify insanity...this is completely different from its irrationality.

    Again...I have highlighted words that demonstrate emotive reasoning. Irrationality.

    Being motivated by religion can only be attributed to emotive reasoning since there is absolutely no logical evidence of any sort of divine benefit whatsoever.

    Because my dear Om, I believe I alluded that religious proponents are affected by mass hysteria, they perpetuate it rather than create it. If you would be so kind as to click on the word hysteria, you will see that it's definition is wholly dependant on unstable emotions. Hysteria, and mass hysteria are by all classes of definition the result of illogical, irrational emotions.

    Wishing to achieve eternal paradise is a goal yes, however, since we have no evidence of such, the need for it must obviously be based on an emotional desire...irrational.


    Basically then:

    You can insist all you want that the rationale existed in Cho's mind. You can compare it to warrior conduct, sadness, perception whatever. This may even have been true and just in Cho's mind. We can even study the incident, and try to understand what would drive a person to such extreme measures.

    None of this will detract from the fact that by logical and medical definition, Cho was irrational in the extreme, and I am prompted to reiterate that I worry for anyone that would think that his decision was anything but.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2007
  10. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

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    Enterprise, I invite you to read my above posts. Cho was not irrational by a logical definition. It's only possible by subjective definition, but that subjectivity is not very accurate.

    By a psychology definition, he had problems which his family and everyone around him refused to address. The result of his life is not illogical, merely troubled. As my above posts explain. If you want to debate his logic, I suggest you discuss those posts.
     
  11. Saquist Banned Banned

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  12. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    I have addressed this already; I will post the definitions for your benefit -

    Cho was endowed with the ability to think. Think reasonably? Not necessarily so starting with autism.
    Affected by loss of mental clarity? Clearly.
    Marked by lack of accord with reason/sound judgement? Obviously.

    Irrational.

    I agree that his actions were predictable enough. I agree that he was clearly the result of a troubled life. I agree that he was psychologically unstable.

    NONE of this justifies anyone trying to insinuate that his actions were rational. And, Jeremy, I also do not care to weave my way through insane logic.
     
  13. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

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    ...wow...you're so busy "correcting" me, that you apparently are utterly ignoring my explanation of subjectivity.

    Amongst other things, I know the definition of irrational, and that wasn't even the point of my posts.
    Your entire post here serves no purpose.

    Let me try again: In his reality, his actions were rational. You may claim that your reality is more "realistic", but your reality is subjective to your own experiences.

    Due to this, you cannot objectively say he was irrational. Therefore, I dub him "rational", since you can only judge him by his reality.
     
  14. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    I do not care about perspective, I care about logic. I totally understand what you are trying to say. You are however, labouring under a misapprehension.

    He was clearly reacting out of emotions. His video was not one of logic. It was clear he was angry and incoherent. You and every Cho-is-rational proponent state in black and white that he was traumatised by external sources. Look at the definition of irrational! It covers everything you're spouting!

    The poll is...was Cho's decision rational or irrational? I have demonstrated beyond the shadow of a doubt that he was irrational. His perspective only gives us an explanation, it does not give us leave to claim that he or his decision was rational. "In his reality" indeed! A warped definition of 'rational' is not rational.

    Matter of fact...were he alive and actually judged by a court of law to be in control of his wits (otherwise known as rational) he'd have been executed for 1st degree, premeditated, gratuitous murder of 32 people...rather than be tried as insane, and receive the medical attention that you were clamouring that he needed.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2007
  15. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    This by the way is total bullshit. How can you claim to judge anyone through his own perspective/reality when you have never experienced that same reality...indeed never heard of this individual til he opened fire on a reknowned university campus? Your judgement of rationality must necessarily come from your own experience, and since I presume you are not insane, you must understand that his reactions are irrational.
     
  16. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

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    While your assertion here is true, you can get very close to it if you employ methods of psychology.

    It's highly unlikely that he thought his actions irrational. While your above posts do, in fact, speak truth, they ignore my premise for my point. While at the same time you recognize my premise. How does that work?

    Lastly, if I were to judge him by my own subjective reality, I'd say he was irrational. but this, in itself, is an irrational act. As your logic is tainted to begin with.
    While it could be said that it's tainted either way, I hold it my personal opinion that if you judge someone by their reality (as best you can), you're much more accurate.

    I'm repeating myself now. Ergh. If I must repeat myself again, and simply reword it each time, I'm going to resign from this discussion.
     
  17. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    Of course Cho may not have considered himself irrational. But the very same methods of psychology will have told the prosecuting attorney (were Cho alive) that he was insane, and to be tried AS insane!

    Clearly you have stymied yourself with an incorrect premise.

    Also, you keep mentioning that your own reality is subjective. Of course it is. However, its subjectivity does not make your experience an invalid tool to gauge the rationality or lack thereof of another individual.



    And I maintain, were you the judge, jury and executioner of Cho; you would have judged him rational, thus premeditative; and be forced to throw the chair switch yourself.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2007
  18. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

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    The term "insane" is always thrown about loosely. Insane does not mean irrational.

    Clearly you aren't understanding my premise.

    No, but I'm speaking from my experience. One can merely judge him as unstable, not irrational.

    Note that my argument that he's rational is only achieved if you attempt to look at it through his eyes. In his mind, of course it was rational.

    Incorrect. I'd have judged him as unstable. And since courts do not judge people based on how they view themselves, and rather use subjective methods, then I could not judge him as rational.

    So you can't really maintain that if I was the judge, jury, etc, I'd have done "such and such".
     
  19. Sputnik Banned Banned

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    DonĀ“t know how to say this gently, Jeremy ............

    A few days ago we had an analysis by specialists ( both shrinks and psychologists ) of Cho , on national tv :

    Final verdict : delusional in his concept of the world , irrational in his decision of doing this ..... but nicely executed ...........

    Sorry ............
     
  20. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    I'd love to know how you can judge someone as unstable. Cho didn't think he was unstable...you're not judging him from his reality! Thus you're on unstable ground trying to judge Cho as unstable, because your "stability" wasn't his "stability".

    Clearly Jeremy, you were speaking out of the wrong hole in trying to use some sort of romanticized, sorrowful and even apologist excuse of psychology.


    As posted by Sputnik, learned specialists have deemed the boy to be delusional and irrational. Nuff said.
     
  21. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Jer-whatever, I'm not inserting any emotions here - quite the contrary, I'm very detached on this issue.

    It's clear to everyone here - except you, obviously - that your "subjective" reasoning is pure bunk. Every irrational person THINKS they are perfectly rational. So your argument is circular and leads to nothing.

    Besides all that, it's impossible to have a meaningful debate with a fool like you who makes up their own definitions to suit their own purposes. So, I'm totally finished with you on this and any other matter. Go ahead and have the last word (I know you will) and it will be just as worthless as anything else you've said here. Pure poppycock.
     
  22. Jeremyhfht Registered Senior Member

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    No source, and specifically: an appeal to authority fallacy. Yeah. Totally a good way to prove me wrong.

     
  23. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    You actually refuse to see that you're KO'ed. By my reality, I've won this argument a number of pages ago.

    And I hope the irony of the above statement isn't lost on you. If you look at this whole argument from my reality, you cannot come to any other conclusion that you, Jeremy, are debating from a futile position.

    Clearly then, this whole "judge only by the other person's reality" is a farce. Of course "crazy people don't know they're crazy". It is up to us rational people to judge by sanity yardsticks, so that we can attempt to treat irrational folk.

    You play at being a bleeding heart without understanding why you're doing it.


    Prof. P.T. Wong comments on VA Tech

    This was pretty easy to find thru Google. The article is on Newswire as well. Of course we realise catalysts, but as Wong says Cho was "pushed over the edge" (irrational). And, the 'appeal to authority' claim only works if the expert simply asserts without assessment or proof that can't be followed by colleagues or readers. Demonizing the media also does not remove the truth from the fact that Cho was clearly irrational.

    "There can be no justification for the evil of mass killing" Wong says, and I agree; how can shooting 32 defenseless people ever be a rational decision to anyone?

    I completely understand, Jeremy, that you purport that Cho's state of mind would have led him to believe that he was sane. However, the question is "Was Cho's decision rational or irrational?" The question is not "Did Cho think he was rational or irrational?"

    You have wasted time answering the wrong question.
     

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