We always think of ourselves first

I believe that our own interests are always first in our decisions.

While we may really want to help a homeless man, when we finally do, it will not be primarily for the sake of the man, but for the sake of our own desire.

Agree? Disagree?

 

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Not to be trite but, how could it possibly be otherwise?
There is no escaping the self, ergo, all starts there.
The challenge of living a moral life is in trying to behave in a way that attempts to overcome this natural state.

 

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There is no such thing as an unselfish act. Even the most charitable person (e.g., Mother Teresa) acts as she does to make herself emotionally satisfied.

In the remake of Bedazzled (with Brendan Fraser and Elizabeth Hurley), the guy gets out of his contract with the devil by performing a truly selfless act. The devil bemoans, "No one ever reads the contract." If he had read the contract, though, and knew that a "selfless act" would void the contract, he would not longer be capable of performing one. Any benevolent act on his part would have been tinged with the knowledge that it would benefit him.

When we do something for someone we love, particularly when we do something for someone we love, it is because we want them to love us back. Going to a movie you don't want to see because your boyfriend does, sitting through your boyfriend's band performance, which is slightly dull and not a little painful, because it's important to him, all done in an effort to show him how much we care so he will care likewise. If you get the righteous feeling of self-sacrifice, a "I love you more" superiority, so much the better for you.

I don't think this is cynical or, forgive my use of the word, bitter. It's just fact. We always act per our motivation. Even when we do the opposite of what we really want to do, we can congratulate ourselves for our strength of character.

 

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I don't think we can do the opposite of what we really want to do. We never do anything other than what it is we want to do most.

Lol, according to this, unconditional love is a figment of our imagination!

Glaucon, I agree, that as long as we identify ourselves as an entity, we will always act for ourselves first.

 

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I concur.

Damn!.. There's that 'I' again starting things off.... lol

 

And what is our own desire in this case? To help the homeless man? If so then the argumant is circular and there is no point in discussing it.

 

"I want to help the homeless man because helping those who need help makes me feel like a generous and caring person." "Because Jesus said to, and I will feel closer to Him if I do." "I'm supposed to pay my roommate back this twenty bucks, but screw her."

It makes me happy to believe I am generous and caring to the needy. It gives me comfort to be closer to God. I get a sense of smug satisfaction out of jacking my bitch roommate out of the twenty bucks she's been bitching about for two weeks.

Human beings are motivated by the desire to achieve pleasure and avoid pain, physical, mental and emotional. Those who actively seek out pain do so to derive some satisfaction from it - sexual gratification, self-mutilation done for the purpose of "feeling something."

 

bitterchick.........What goes around, comes around. Remember this when your in the same fix when you want something back you lent to others. Paybacks are a bitch!

 

I don't always think for myself. I tend to sacrifice myself for others. Many times I've loaned money to someone where I needed it and I ended up screwing myself by missing some bill but I don't mind. So I lose my cable, electricity or something else for a couple days, OH NO, HOW CAN I SURVIVE!?!?! AHHHH! lol. I'll just do something better and go spend the night at a friend's house, go to the beach, go to the library, or something else.

I'm low maintenance and really have no desire to accumulate wealth. There's no real purpose other than to have a new toy. I'm not gonna waste 50k on some cool car as that's a waste of money to me, heh. Oh wow, I have a nice sportscar, I'm sooo cool, whoopdeedoo.

When I get paid, I just keep enough money to pay my neccessities and keep a bit of fun money, and the rest I give to my family -- my dad to help with his bills and debt, my sister for her new car payments, my mom for her bills too -- or to any other friend in need. And as for others, I give homeless people money when I have some on me, otherwise I chat with them and shoot the shit for awhile. I tip very well too.

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I'm no Mother Teresa, but I rarely do things for myself because that's just how I am.. I'm humble. I don't do it to get closer to God or any of that BS. I just do it because those things are more beneficial to others than myself. I'm just not sucked into this whole materialistic society. Call me weird, heh.

- N

 

Neildo

Now imagine good sir if you didn't do what you do with your money. What kind of a shithead would you feel like? You do it because it comforts you and strokes your ego as a chartable person.

When someone mentions that everyone does something for their benefit it doesn't neccessarily mean garnishing their lives with wealth and luxary while others suffer...they mean one does what he/she can to keep their mind at ease. Yours is put at ease knowing you are using that money for something worthwhile.

This whole act of being prudent and giving with your money is for your benefit...not fiscal but mental.

 

Hi everyone:
I agree, we always put our own interest first. That's because there is only one of us. We are all one. Therefore, there is only one interest. However, some people's interests in mainly directed to their individual self, and we call that selfish, and some people has a larger interest, towards a larger self. It is all because the definition of the self is different to those two types of people. Why not enlarge your definition of the self to include everyone, and if you can, eveything?

 

I think that all beings have no choice but to act to their subjective good. If they percieve that to be helping someone else, then they do it if other factors don't stop them.

 

What would say about a person who "selflessly" jumps in front of a car/stranger in order to save their life? Or just in general, someone who, with full knowledge of the consequences, undertakes an action that saves/benefits in some way the life of another? Is any sacrifice truly selfless?

 

That they were brave and caring? It's kind of messed up really. Sure, it's totally selfish of them to want to save the other person's life, but that's still a good thing.. especially to that other person you know? Hell especially to the person to took the risk too. They did it because they are principles and willing to incur penalities (like death) to stick to their values. That is nobility IMO.

Same.

No, selflessness is a myth. It's a good way to describe all that shit above though in a short way is all. The implications of underlying selfishness aren't necessarily pertinent, depending on the depth of the conversaton about the topic.

In other words in normal conversation I might say "that selfless bastard", which really implies "he was so selfish about sticking to his values that we was willing to risk his life to save someone else, that is some noble shit". It's a matter of being succinct I think.

 

I don't think it is. If I see a hungry cat on the street I would love to give it some of my food if I had any. That is selflessness right?

 

Exactly. I believe me and Quantum Quack got into a discussion similar to this. It was the idea that everyone's actions are always selfish. Unless it benefits us in some way then we would never do what we do.

 

Doesn't Bentham call this the egoistic hook? We all do things because it makes us happy, and it is in our interests. Otherwise we as rational human beings wouldn't do it? I think that's why communism simply cannot work, but that's another thread. So yes we do things because we selfishly think about ourselves first, but if used in the right context it's not a bad thing.

 

Fraggle Rocker, I like your input.

I too think that there is usually a variety of reasons why one does something.

Maybe the problem with approaching this issue is also in how we perceive ourselves, society and our relation towards it. After all, if I use my car less, and several million people also do so, even though we may not know about eachother and have different reasons for not using our cars (ecological concerns, saving money,...), we have contributed to a healthier environment for *all.*
We are members of society and we couldn't exist without society, and society could not exist without us. Sometimes, this doesn't seem so obvious, especially when the numbers go into millions and it seems that one member of the system doesn't make a difference. Of course, he may not, but there are several millions of such who "don't make a difference" -- and these several millions then do make a difference.
So, often, when we do something apparently selfish, we are more or less directly influencing society, in a positive or in a negative way. And by influencing society, we are influencing ourselves, for we are members of this society. It's just that the connections are hard to see and sometimes seem minor and neglectable.

Like the saying: A butterfly flips its wings in China and causes a hurricane in the Caribbean.

 

OK if u are expanding it to include just making ones self feel happy then I can come up with anohter one. What about the mother who is being held hostage with her child. The gunman decides one has to die. The mother has a strong survival instinct and so reluctantly (no happiness) decides to spare the child. That is pure selflessness is it not?