What Do People Know About What They Pretend to Discuss?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Tiassa, Nov 15, 2017.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,810
    Absolutely and maybe I should have pointed that out to you, when in the past it was you who failed to address my questions.

    Tell you what I will do...ask me any question that you need answered and I promise I will give you the best answer I am able to give.

    No no no...I can see you are somewhat upset so please ask away, if there is anything you do not know or understand, that you feel I should be able to help you with, and I will give you as honest an answer as I am able to give.

    Yes you did.

    I gave you a reasonable reply which you seem to have overlooked or not understood.
    Please re read my reply and if you have any further questions please ask away. I am happy to help with any information that is not at hand for you.

    Not entirely. I limit my call upon ignorant ancients to those who drank too much wine and eat magic mushrooms and thought their imaginings were real.
    It would be inappropriate to consider the Sumerians ignorant given our model for civilization is a near copy of theirs..and just think where did Abraham come from.

    I don't know where I picked it up actually..maybe when reading how they once worshipped the Sun and then went about presenting human demi gods whose father was the Sun and all the various works outlining the multiple human god cults based upon astrology.

    Not entirely, as I have said many times, I do not like Alan Guths theory of inflation but I do think he has provided a reasonable possibility, very well thought out and supported by a paper that so far has not been rejected.
    Why would one feel uneasy taking a scientist at his word so to speak in an area that is his speciality..you see papers come from scientists who are expert in their field or rather understand and have done their research in that field.

    I find them reliable unlike the guy with his collar on backwards in the video as clearly he has not been entirely honest in his casual and biased presentation.

    Why are you so concerned about me accepting a fact presented by a scientist when you are most casual about accepting passages in scriptures where in most cases they were written thousands of years ago by authors you do not know or record their qualifications to make their various unsupported claims.

    You are the pot calling the kettle shiney.

    Most saddening is that you do not even understand why you have a problem assessing the reliability and credibility of your ancient authors and text.

    The OT is somewhat credible because it was written by a people recording their understanding of history yet the NT is a Roman invention that took one of many cults and used it to maintain their power having their human God set out behaviour that would suit Roman occupation.

    Read about it and don't complain I have a funny view until you have gone over the facts that are as easy to find for you as they are for me.

    Sure it is.

    Jan you can not expect to say stuff like that and not have folk call you either a liar or a fool...or both and more.

    But you have said it and it is you that will have to wear it...All I can do is plead with Paddo not to crush you under your own wardrobe...but I fear I will be powerless as you are bleeding badly now and he is a very efficient shark. Wow is you.
    Why did you stick your head in the lions mouth?...answer..to get to the other side..instant death..other side..get it?


    Thank goodness for that.

    Funny I thought it was it's it's opponent.
    Are you sure because the facts seem to suggest that you are very wrong.

    I think you missed my point, well either unintentional or not you do not get any prize for being tricky because of your sloppy execution.

    Maybe you missed my emphasis upon the importance of fossil records that clearly show the changes that you find can only be objectionable, those records show your approach to be no more than a unsupported wish that your ancient unknown authors were inspired by God...by the way where is it written that they were inspired by God?

    Well Jan as you know I respect you and I did not want you to think that it was forbidden to hold onto crazy notions...you can have them but perhaps only share them in private lest con men seeking gullible prey hear you and seek to take advantage because they sense they have found their easy mark.

    You are correct...scientists go to great effort to get things right.

    I would think that is the main thing we have in common Jan....in fact that is what all humans have in common..if that is your claim to being unique I encourage you to try harder as you just identify with the mob.

    Sounds fascinating but as it does not match my preconceived ideas I shall not look it up not shall I look at any link you post setting out detail.
    I mean it's ridiculous and does not fit into my concept of reality.

    Protests outside schools and court rooms does not count you know. Good speeches from the pulpit are however acceptable but only if they threaten hell as a consequence of not accepting ID.

    All humanity. .. indeed the whole universe is now included.

    I just knew it would be me who had the problem but I will not abandon reason merely to discuss the supernatural..what is supernatural..what a silly word..I don't like it so it goes in the bin along with atheist and theist. Supernatural..it's one of those words the more you say it the sillier it sounds.

    How does he see it?

    Absolutely..you are making stuff up..I get it.

    Let me play.

    God exists outside reality and is unevidenced except by the creation you claim he is responsible for, we can not know his plans but know exactly what he regards as a sin and although there is no hell that is where he will send sinners...have you ever thought we may actually going to a big fire..maybe Gods barbeque...JC called us lambs..I find that most concerning...and he invited us for a nibble...I can see it now...my turn...the flesh is weak err tender that is...

    I think you better apply your reading between the lines skill and tell us what pops out after careful inspection.

    And God certainly in times past like the smell of the burning meat..Gods an Aussie I just know it.

    I only mention it from a historical interest view point as clearly the perception was a flat Earth and if you believed such working out where the Sun went at night would have been a very difficult question in that context.
    I find it interesting any material that gives insite into what our ancestors thought about and the Bible is a great place to get an idea..Proverbs for example is overlooked by everyone..have you read that book? Well when you see their "rules" it is very telling on who these people were.

    Why do you believe it is a globe?.

    How do you prove such a thing?

    I hope you are not just taking the word of those fancy book learning science folk.

    Read your good book and the truth shall be laid before you like the vast plains of...just think wide expance of land...with four corners and the heavens pulled over it like a tent...and don't forget it does not move...
    Do go-ahead prove the Earth is a big ball not fully pumped up.

    Seriously...I read the Bible to get an understanding of how our/my ancestors viewed the world and sort to explain things around them. References to a flat Earth interests me as it reveals something about their understanding of astronomy at the time.
    There is a reference in the NT to stars falling upon the ground which clearly indicates they thought of them as small and not too distant.

    The Bible contains much valuable insite to our ancestors you should read all of it some time.


    Alex
     
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  3. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    23,776
    That may mean something if I was the only person claiming it...but I'm not, am I? And being a lazy bastard I'm just not prepeared to go find extracts proving what others have also accused you of.
    But wait a minute!!
    You're in luck, just following you say....
    Is that another example of your own defining? Or something your Overlords have directed you to say?
    The fact is the definition of infinite is "an abstract quantity, without any limit. [WIKI]
    So yes, my accusation is even more certain.

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    Ít's of no interest to you because once again it shows the bible in its true light....you know, a obscure book, by obscure men, written in an obscure age, full of errors, nonsense, myth.
    Oh, and the Earth is actually an oblate spheroid.
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    23,776

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    Careful Alex, he'll come back and deny that then ask you to show where.
    Just the typical reply from the usual radical gullible creationist/IDer, when he/she/it is backed into a corner.

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    I'm not needed Alex, you appear to have dismantled him. His Overlords wont be happy when he goes home tonight and will probably confiscate his white charger.
     
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  7. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    13,050
    Which points?
    As a start answer the questions in my last two posts to you.
    You’re a strange chap Alex.
    On e moment we seem to be getting along, the next, you’re being patronising.
    Is this an Aussie tactic?
    I get you.

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    Who mentioned anything about feeling uneasy?
    What do you mean by concerned?
    Check out the title of the thread,
    I’ve no idea what you are talking about.
    Maybe you should reiterate.
    I would love for you to elaborate on that.
    But that would be a pointless request. Right?
    Lol!!!
    Paddo’s a lightweight.
    You’d stand more chance.
    Lol!!!
    Why would you think that?
    Evolution is a fact.
    Nope. You said out in the open.
    Good.
    Then act like it.
    Huh???
    So you can choose what to believe?
    Are you sure about that?
    There is truth in your jest.
    From His perspective.
    Good.
    That’s all that was needed.
    Why would it have been a difficult question?
    Because I accepted it from as long as I can remember. I’ve no reason to change my mind.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  8. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,050
    Is that what this attitude is about?
    Lol!!! You guys are funny.
    It’s nice to be able to have laugh in this lockdown situation.
    It’s a pity you are reluctant to play.
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,810
    Not points...questions.

    They were addressed earlier.

    How can I be patronising when I am being humble?

    Let me check.

    I will leave you longer to think about it.

    Done.

    I doubt it.

    Would it?

    I doubt it..I am far too humble.

    Good you can tell when I am being playful.

    Fake news???

    It sure is.

    I was in my van as it was raining.

    It's not an act you read too much into my clumsy expression.

    It should come as no surprise.

    Yes and no.

    No and yes.

    Yes truth just runs like water for me.

    Of course he would ..he is God after all.

    Happy to assist.

    Because Newton wasn't born yet.

    I asked about a globe not God.

    I found a neat video re "Dawinism" it sums up everything I find compelling...would you like me to post it...I had it But lost it and it will take a lot of effort to find it again but if you want I will find it for you.
    Alex
     
  10. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,810
    Yes but when I put him back together I had some pieces left over.
    Alex
     
  11. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,050
    I thought your responses were rather glib, and characteristic of this game you’re playing.
    By not being humble, and patronising.
    This is what I mean.
    Being playful is good when it does not overshadow the discussion. Moderation should be employed.
    It’s not your expression, it’s your content.
    That makes more sense.
    If you are unwilling to participate, I see no reason to carry on this discussion.
    Another pointless response.
    There’s truth in your jest.
    Why assist?
    We’re having a discussion.
    If you don’t wish to discuss your belief, which you claim to be science fact, just say so.
    I enjoy talking with you, but not when you’re trying to act slick.
    ???
    If you have the energy for that, why not use it to enhance this discussion. The chances are I would have already seen it.

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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    13,164
    I found a certain beauty in your response to anonymous (on ignore)

    Alex's Lament
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
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  13. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,050
    Why should that make any difference?
    I’m asking you, not them.

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    Infinity means many different things, depending on when it is used. The word is from a Latin word, which means "without end".

    the state or quality of being infinite.

    time or space that has no end:

    Infinity (often denoted by the symbol

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    or Unicode ∞) represents something that is boundless or endless

    Limitlessness, unlimitedness,
    something which is growing without limits or bounds.

    Note that I stated; “The idea of the infinite, can be used to describe God.”
    By definition, I might add.
    What are you talking about?

    Alex!
    Why do you recommend this dude?
    He’s a pushover.

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  14. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    17,488
    Ah, the last resort when Jan is losing the argument - start to try to redefine words.

    But really, what does "word" mean?
     
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  15. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,050
    Without end?
     
  16. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    23,776
    And I gave you the latest example of your changing definitions, Which like any scientific theory, adds even more certainty to my accusation. I will also add dishonesty to that after viewing your latest replies and attempts at trying to look reasonable.
    Thank you for parroting what I have told you.
    Except of course as you well know, that there is no evidence for any infinite being as redefined by you.
    Ahhh, even more evidence of obtuseness and dishonesty.
    Darwinism and the theory of the evolution of life is a fact, as is Abiogenesis. You need to live with that and avoid your irrational denial.
     
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  17. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,050
    What part of “by definition “ evades you?
    Lol!!!
    That’s what you believe.
    Really?

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    If what you say is true. How can any body be wrong, or even mistaken?
    Please try and think about that before you go blurting out the first thing that spontaneously generates in your head.
    Then again, your belief means that you can never be wrong.

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    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
  18. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    23,776
    Just the fabricated definitions you make up to support your mythical beliefs, and as I and others have already accused you of.
    Embarressed nervous laughter I detect?
    No, that what the science and the scientific facts tell us.

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    Sure!! Think about it [if you are able] once there was no life: then there was. I'm speaking of course on universal Abiogenesis, as Abiogenesis on Earth still may have been "seeded" by life elswhere...Panspermia.
    As has been detailed to you previously, people are sometimes brainwashed into mythical belieif when young, and are simply never capable of moving on to scientific knowledge and fact, people [like you] have an over-riding agenda and baggage that skewers their objectiveness, so that they are never able to move on from the myths pounded into them when young.[like you]
    All I'm blurting out Jan is some scientific facts like Darwinism, the theory of the evolution of life and universal Abiogenesis, which shows your own unsupported creationist/IDer beliefs as both superfluous and mythical.

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    Obviously you appear to be getting somewhat frustrated which with the climate we are now all facing, may not be beneficial to your well being. I suggest an aspro and a good lie down?

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  19. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    20,105
    Jan claims the word infinity means many different things and then proceeds to put definitions all meaning the same thing.

    Mythical, undetectable, invisible, fantasy and non-existent can also be used to describe God.
     
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  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,164
    Jan is a perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. He believes that he is the only one who understands the metaphorical nature and the deeper meaning contained in the spiritual truths contained in the bible.

    What he does not understand is that we all know exactly what he is experiencing in his mind and that it is egocentric nonsense. He presumes to teach us his truth, without even listening to other perspectives, which in his mind are so far inferior to his revelatory divine inspiration, that while he reads what is being said, he does not deign to think about it. To Jan atheists are like ants reaching for the sky, while he, Jan is the earthly keeper of the holy ant-farm as declared in scripture and which charge he is executing with dilligent devotion.
     
  21. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,050
    Wow! Yet another accusation.
    It’s amazing the lengths you will go, to avoid discussing your beliefs.
    I hope you know what’s going on in my mind, otherwise discussion would be pointless.

    Now you appear to be playing the victim.
    Wow!
    As from now.
    I will not make any enquires from y’all, about your belief in darwinism. It is clear to me you can’t handle it.
    Atheists are people who lack a belief in God.
    I don’t think you are fully aware of the full extent of what that entails.

    I could compile essays on each of these subtitles;

    1 You say there is no evidence for God.

    2 As atheists, you cannot know if there is evidence, or not.

    3 You openly reject, and deny, the definition of God.

    5 Your atheism has nothing to with science, or logic.

    6 It is due to a non acceptance of God.

    7 Your non acceptance of God means you cannot believe in God.

    8 Hence atheism.

    Rebut that, if you can.
    Stop playing the victim.
    Stop shifting the focus towards me, by pretending you’ve addressed points, when you haven’t.
    Prove me wrong.
     
  22. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,050
    Yet you accuse me of inventing new meanings.
    And yet you have the audacity to call me hypocrite.
    The cracks are showing brother.
    Keep typing.
     
  23. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,810
    ,
    You sure know how to hurt a guy.

    However my humility and the teachings of Jesus dictates that I reply again in the best manner I can.

    First of all, to give context to my difficulties in not giving you a more detailed reply, I type here with one finger on my small phone, I do not use my lap top or desk top, which would relieve much of the difficulty, because I need to lay down a fair bit and in those times enjoy the sheer pleasure of coming here, a pleasure that I sincerely say Jan is greatly enhanced by you and Paddo, and certainly all the other wonderful and exceedingly brilliant people who post on this site, reading here is entirely uplifting, however as you could expect typing with one finger on a small phone forces one to be brief and perhaps more casual than one would like, well certainly for me as I would much more enjoy providing you with all the material that has me confident that Dawinism, in so far as explaining, among other things, the diversity of species, yet my limitations somewhat prevent me going into my deeper thoughts in depth leaving you understandably suggesting I have not addressed your questions, so please forgive me as certainly Jesus would call upon you to do.
    Forgive my overall brevity you deserve more.
    If I was able to comfortably use a keyboard whilst on my back I assure you we would both be more satisfied.
    However, reading between the lines, a skill that you demonstrate with such precision I feel excited to try it myself, I think, reading between your lines, you may be trying to demonstrate that it is not always easy to define in a simple specific terms why one can hold a certain belief and indeed condense many hours of research into desirable chunks that will somehow convey all you know in a couple of simple sentences. And I feel your demand for simple answers to a question that has no simple answers is your way of telling those who have acquired the noble skill of reading between the lines, that just as you find difficulty in providing simple answers where you feel there is none that even those who place their confidence in sciences will find similar difficulties when pressed on what intially seem like simple matters.
    Nevertheless knowing all this, even knowing what Jesus expects from each of us I can not layout something short that can give you an inkling of the material I find presented by "Darwinism" compelling.
    And clearly everything we think we know falls into a category of belief in so far, as you point out, we each ultimately rely upon material that we find compelling or not and that even truth and fact can be elusive...but I must pause, as I fear I may only be putting words in your mouth, to permit you to reject anything I have covered trying to analyse your position, that I may have misconstrued.
    However I find using just my phone is a wonderful thing as it forces me to use simple words.
    Often I can think of words that provide the luxury of being concise but I find using a Thesaurus on the phone simple just far too tiresome and often for me, and I suspect others, one can find a useful and far better word if one has the list that helps selection of a better word.
    And often one will find a word that although in ones memory it's infrequent use requires a further check via a dictionary.
    And perhaps if using a lap top or desk top referencing material would not be as energy consuming as on a phone.
    So continuing my efforts to be concise I can not give you perhaps that short answer you seek somewhat like you can not give me the short answers I seek.

    Good answer, clearly well considered, but you overlook the fact that humility is as much a part of me as is my crook legs, certainly both can be seen as a burden by others but I must accept the cards I am dealt, lay down often and be humble...When I was a Christian I focused on the positive teachings and I came away believing humility was an admirable quality. I am happy with it particularly when in the presence of folk who are perhaps at the opposite end of that scale.
    I certainly do not feel happy to be accused of being patronising as certainly it is not, as you may say, in my heart, but I would say part of my personal...yet if there is one strength I believe is my most precious, is the ability to see myself as others may see me...and I can see why you may think I am patronising and all I can offer is perhaps it is a glimpse of a past from when I was a smart arse kid.

    I never (and I reserve that word for important occassions) wish to offend you, or others Jan...I sometimes think me saying " they did not even know where the Sun went at night" could be offensive but when I say that I merely try to transport the reader back to a time where they did not know stuff like that and certainly not to show any disrespect.

    I find discussing my view of the Bible difficult as my views are perhaps too deep and my observations too historic too be met with understanding from others...and then my efforts to be casual are perhaps too casual...I just don't know..what do you think?
    Yes I see your point.
    I don't like to blame others and I will not but by way of explanation which you most certainly are entitled to have delivered free of back stepping qualification, I say that I, perhaps wrongly, thought I was playing the game somewhat like you...and as it is written imitation is an indication of respect and admiration...and I merely tried to be like you Jan...it's not your fault..it is my fault..I could not play the game the way you play it as I am just not that clever.
    I understand you but ....
    Being unable to go anywhere without risking death is at the top of my list.
    But nevertheless true.
    Would there be a chance that you would agree with it?
    Let us discuss why you reject the facts contained therein.

    Alex
     

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