What does religion do for mankind that the statement "Be kind" doesn't do better?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Seattle, Apr 7, 2019.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    28,364
    It's dishonest.
    Why don't you answer mine? Mine's at least relevant - you are claiming experts in field without expertise: how do you manage that?
     
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    The premise contains an if.
    Which means it may be false.
    Which means 'there are no experts' is a valid answer.
    So there's your answer.
     
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  5. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    Provides a route to salvation (in some religions at least).

    Provides a metaphysics, a view of ultimate reality and the human individual's place in the big picture.

    Creates a (mythical) context for events here on Earth, making historical and life events seem meaningful and not just 'one damn thing after another'.

    Prescribes a means for inner transformation, ranging from ethical and/or ritual practice through many forms of meditation.

    Motivates much of humanity's greatest art.
     
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  7. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Is the corollary true?
    That one could worship God without the religion and one would not enjoy salvation?
     
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Apart from a route to salvation (in some religions at least).

    none of this can be done by Atheists???

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    2,571
    It can be done, but most of us don't need those things provided for us.
    The main reason we became atheists was that we didn't feel such a need.
    The main reason theists don't understand us is that they do have that need and can't imagine giving it up.
     
  10. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe there's a realization that we don't need "salvation" - like thinking you're drowning and praying to the lifeguard, and then realizing that you can just stand up.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Well, what rational person thinks they will be immersed in fire and brimstone for eternity? Salvation presupposes something to be saved from.
     
  12. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    SIN, original, heritable, unatonable
    If you don't believe in the sin, you don't need saving.
    That doesn't prevent them trying to save you. You can be walking quite comfortably in knee-deep surf, and one of them will come along an whack you in the head with a ring buoy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    11,108
    The question that spawned this reference to salvation was M345's, where he mentioned atheism. There is no sin for atheists. Sin is specifically divine judgment (that's the definition). Atheists may certainly
    have ideas about wrongdoing and judgment, but divine sin is incompatible with any meaningful atheist view.
     
  14. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    I know. As I said above, it's a question of need.
    If you're insecure enough to crave an external identity, you can be convinced that this mass identity is guilty from the get-go and requires mass salvation.
    The pretzel-thinking that that engenders is difficult to contemplate, harder to comprehend.
     
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  15. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    2,575
    Actually you DO make positive connections to anything with philosophy ... if philosophy had a job description, that would be it.
    For instance, one can systematically reject a claim ( or to be kind, merely accept it as speculation) made on the authority of empiricism by examining what empiricism can and cannot deliver. Hence the science that governs metal smelting stands at one end of the spectrum, and the science that governs (?) abiogenesis and cosmology stands at the other. So, by way of that example, on what basis are you systematically rejecting these things?
    At the moment you are talking about 'a reasonable standard' ... so what would a religious authority be required to demonstrate in order to be granted 'reasonable' status, iyho?
    I ask, because in these discussions it's often the case that atheists are harbouring unrealistic standards within the core of their discussions.

    Classic case in point with the atheists guffawing over the destruction of the notre dam cathedral.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019 at 12:38 PM
  16. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    The point is that you wouldn't bother trying to establish the difference between eating a pineapple and your car. These are the sorts of questions that come from the seriously deranged or someone playing some sort of cerebral game that culminates in wasting time.
     
  17. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    It may be a necessary evil or the best use of a bad bargain, but, in practical spheres, equating the law with kindness is a slippery slope.
     
  18. Musika Last in Space Valued Senior Member

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    It's seen that there is a popular distinction between religion and spirituality. People seem to take religion as rules and regs, formalities etc and spirituality as developing higher qualities born of self control or introspection (like kindness, for example).
    Is this al9ng the same lines of what you are trying to say?
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That is what I am asking Yazata, yes.
     
  20. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    I heard it differently: the most religious people in the world - jihadist Muslims - celebrated that fire. It seemed to them the triumph of their (true) god over your (false) god - both of whom like to show off with fancy houses, but neither cares much about kindness.
    For the majority of atheists, severe damage to a fine example of medieval architecture is not funny - and I don't know any who "guffaw" - even if that architecture is a *monumental* waste of resources and man-hours, to the glory of church hierarchy at the expense of the poor French people of the time. Repairs will cost another fortune, but to the French people of today, it's beneficial as a landmark, a point of national pride and a tourist attraction.
    Of course, jokes are made, by all kinds of people - but at least some atheists are thoughtful, even about that.
     
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  21. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Sure I would. All you had to do was ask:

    Differences between driving a car and eating a pineapple
    1. It takes a lot longer to eat a car.
    2. A pineapple gets better gas mileage.
    3. You don't need a license to eat a pineapple.
    4. You can put a pineapple in your car but you can't put a car in your pineapple.
    5. A pina colada made of car juice is much harder to sell.
    6. You don't have to peel a car before you drive it.
    7. They don't grow cars in Hawaii.
    I could go on and on if you like.

    Now you: What's the difference between crystal-rubbing and God-bothering?
     
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  22. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    5,188
    Slide away. Show us the difference.
     
  23. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Aren't all slopes potentially slippery?
     

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