What Electricity Is Really Made Of

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by ghost7584, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. Physics Monkey Snow Monkey and Physicist Registered Senior Member

    First, an admission: I have not done the experiments, and I haven't given any thought to possible conventional explanations. It seems clear that Leedskalnin was a construction genius, but I do think it rather likely that a conventional explanation is possible. The theory we have does describe nature extremely well, and it seems unlikely that such a discrepancy in the basic laws could be missed.

    What I can say something definite about is the role of magnetic monopoles in the conventional theory. It is true that Maxwell's equations could be rather easily modified to include magnetic charge. The equations actually become considerably more symmetric if magnetic charges are allowed. Also, as Dale mentioned, monopoles are a common feature of many field theories, and it is actually a challenge to understand why we don't see monopoles (this is related to the need for something like inflation). Monopoles also have the attractive feature of helping to understand why electric charge is quantized. So yes, detecting them would definitely be Nobel prize material, but it would hardly constitute an upset to the basic laws of physics.
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  3. Billy T Use Sugar Cane Alcohol car Fuel Valued Senior Member

    I know little about magnetic monoploes, but think that since there are both N and S poles predictied to have been formed in great quanityies when matter formed (or at least in the same era) there is need of explanation as to why none have been definitely found. My Idea on this is that both N & S pole are matter (as opposed to anti matter) so unlike electron and positron there should be now equal quantities of each. However, like the opposite electric charges, the opposite magnet charges have an inverse square law attraction. Thus long range froces brought them together in pairs.

    If they are subject to quantum effects, perhaps some thing like hydrogen atoms form, but because of their great mass, I think they may have a different size (smaller?). If there is any "tunneling" that can put them together, only two may be big enough to form a "micro black hole" with no net magetic field. _I.e. a "hairless BH." _ if this is true, then perhaps these micro black holes evaporated quickly - Ie - short after they formed, earliy in the histor of matter, some very energetic radiation was emitted which now may be seen greatly red shifted down to be the source of some of the very energetic gamma rays, which are also hard to understand.

    Again I know little about all this but perhaps PM et al who know more may want tpo shoot this idea down or develope it more? Comments?
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  5. ghost7584 Registered Senior Member

    Cement brick weighing 15 pounds on bathroom scale. Check bathroom scale to see that it will weigh the same if taken off and put back on the scale.
    Car battery charger rated at 20 amps.
    Experiment must be done on a dark night, to avoid the photoelectric effect of light knocking the electrons (south pole magnets as E. L calls them) off of the cement. I did it on a cold night. The colder temperature might help keep resistance lower. I used a flashlight; don't point it at the brick. Use it to see the scale reading. [Leedskalnin did his work at night.]
    Experiment done on cement pavement in my back yard.
    + terminal connected to a large metal T shaped pole stuck in the concrete pavement. (I reasoned that I should channel away plus charge to allow a good amount of negative charge to get on the brick; so I connected to the pole. Cement brick is sitting on the scale. Soak the cement brick and cement pavement (between brick and pole and under scale) with water to help conductivity of the current.
    The negative terminal is connected to the brick on the scale. Battery charger has clamps. Run the charger for 6 or 7 minutes or longer or shorter vary it to get results. Run the charger at the highest power it will go if you have power settings.
    This is the important part. How you break the connection. The current is going from the plus terminal down the pole through cement pavement up through scale and through brick to the negative clamp that is on the brick.
    Break the connection by taking the cement brick off the scale. Turn off current and take off clamp from brick. Put brick back on scale. Check the weight and see if it decreased any.
    I did this 6 years ago and am telling you this from memory.
    You might vary this a little. I may be forgetting some minute details.
    Maybe I held the brick as I turned off the current or maybe I put it down in some dry place and then picked it up to put on the scale. Maybe I kept holding it and put it right back on the scale without putting it down first. - don't remember. Play around with it and do it slightly different ways, and check the weight when you put it back on the scale. If there is a slight 2 lb lessening in weight. Take brick off scale. Put it down. Pick it up a little while later and put in on scale again. See if weight went back up to the original amount.
    I have this written down somewhere, but I am writing this from memory. Play around with it and see if you get the lessening in weight.
    I did it twice and got the same 2 lb lessening in weight.
    Checked the scale to see if it was faulty. The scale wasn't faulty. It gave an accurate repeatable reading.
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  7. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    IF SUCH, can cause the reduction of weight.. even alittle...

    it says alot...

    do you know what kind of cement it was?

  8. ghost7584 Registered Senior Member

    Electrons do exist, but they are really south magnetic pole units. [Smallest unit of south magnetic magnetism.]
    Leedskalnin would call an electron a south pole magnet.

    So what would be a proton. Maybe a neutron with a north pole magnet stuck to it?

    What would be a photon? Maybe a north and south pole magnet orbiting each other and the wave effect of light is the same wave effect in the particle/wave duality of small particles in quantum mechanics. The faster they orbit, the higher the energy (more mass) and shorter wavelength of the particle wave.-- This is all speculation, trying to match Leedskalnin's ideas to other parts of electro/magnetism.

    Atomic model. Nucleus is north pole magnets and neutrons with south pole magnets orbiting. -- maybe!

    Getting it right is important. It can lead to a new understanding, new experiments and new ways to use it.

    Leedskalnin apparently floated heavy coral stones on the earth's magnetic field because he understood it a different way.
    Note: Coral stone is full of cavities and maybe this will allow it to collect a higher charge.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2006
  9. ghost7584 Registered Senior Member

    Good. Give Leedskalnin a nobel prize posthumously.
    Leedskalnin had a 4th grade formal education and weighed about 97 lbs. His experiments are detailed, and repeatable, and reasonable. Science rejected his views. -- Who would listen to him if he said his experiments show J J Thompson to be wrong? [He mentioned that Thompson is wrong.]
    I'm glad he put Coral Castle there in Florida. It seems like he was going to show them that he was right by giving them a problem they can't figure out. Sort of like getting revenge on the scientific community for rejecting him.
    He taught himself about magnets and electricity. Read up on it and built his own generator.
  10. ghost7584 Registered Senior Member

  11. ghost7584 Registered Senior Member

    Cement brick is the type shaped like an oblong box with two rectangular wholes separated by a center level. The shape you see karate guys putting wooden boards on to break the wood. It is a common shape for cement.
    I don't know the mixture or percentages of cement to sand or anything like that. The pavement was cement, water, sand and pebbles.- I saw my dad mix that when I was real young.

    I think the coral stone that Leedskalnin used was probably better because it is full of cavities and can probably hold more charge.
  12. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    FASCINATING.. i have said bricks. but i lack the charger... but i think i can get one...

    its worth trying..

    can you elaborate on this positive ground connection?

    and by pos.. you mean the cable from the charger which we would normally connect to the pos terminal of a car battery...??

    the red cable...??

    also... can you make a basic drawing of the set up.??/

    it would help me alot.

  13. phlogistician Banned Banned

    Question, you said you verified the lessenig of weight twice. Did you verify the brick gaining weight again after the experiment twice too? Or did you just repeat the experiment?

    Because it sounds to me like the lessening of weight can be quite simply explained by the brick drying out. It's not the lesseneing that's interesting at all, it's the gaining weight part of the process that is important.
  14. Physics Monkey Snow Monkey and Physicist Registered Senior Member


    I think you are seriously underestimating just how much one person can accomplish, especially when they have drive and genius of Leedskalnin. One need not invoke magic, people are already capable of amazing feats in the "ordinary" world, and these amazing feats have in the end a perfectly ordinary explanation. Furthermore, your assertion that there are mathematical discrepancies in the present theory of electromagnetism is simply incorrect. For example, pick up the textbook "Classical Electrodynamics" by Nobel prize winning physicist J. Schwinger to see just how complete and elegant the classical theory is. The full quantum theory has been successfully applied to produce essentially all of modern technology. In the domain of fundamental tests, the present theory has achieved levels of accuracy that astound the imagination. There are of course signs that something awaits beyond, but in so far as we are talking about experiments that have done until now, the present theory is in superb agreement with nature. I can assure you that the mathematical discrepancies you reference are imagined and likely extend from an incomplete or flawed understanding of the theory. Ultimately all I can say is that we know we have it right because we've looked.
  15. chroot Crackpot killer Registered Senior Member

    Jesus H. Christ, this guy thinks he's created antigravity by connecting a battery charger to a fucking cinder block! Did he ever think to put an ammeter in his circuit, and measure how much charge was actually moving? No. Does he even know what a battery charger works? No. He just set the "power knob" on high and believed he was pumping loads of anti-gravitational energy into his cinder block. I give dollars to donuts that the impedance of several feet of concrete, wet surface or not, is in the tens of megohms, and the battery charger did exactly jack shit.

    Picture it: you're sitting in your easy chair, sipping tea and reading a book on general relativity. You look out the window, and there's this moron next door lugging around wet cinder blocks in the middle of night, splashing water everywhere. You watch him connecting a battery charger to the wet cinder block and different parts of his house. He's moving this block on an off his rusty old bathroom scale, and trying hard not to shine his FLASHLIGHT on the cinder block lest it ruin his experimental results.

    This is the same moron who tried to turn science on its ear in a different thread by asserting that any equation that has i in it should instead have t in it.

    And, you, Physics Monkey, are still actually trying to have a meaningful conversation with him!

    - Warren
  16. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member


    please... light can ionize.. especially free loose electrons which maybe residing on a charged object....

    most battery chargers come with an amp meter.... dah.

    and his desciption of the charge comming out of the positive cable.. the red one.
    is correct... since the auto industry does everything backwards...

    pos is the source of electrons.. while the neg is then the positive potential.
    stupid i know...

    and the impedense of a dc curcuit is zero.... its not a/c moron..
    its just resistance...

    and the wet concrete would have zillions of ions in it.. due to the water...
    and depending on the wetness and dirt in the water and from the concrete the resistance need not be that high at all.

    you really havent given it much thought have you?
  17. chroot Crackpot killer Registered Senior Member


    Oh, really? Well, what exactly is the work function for CONCRETE, eh?

    Charge doesn't "come out of" either terminal. You can equivalently think of positive charges as moving from the positive terminal to the negative terminal, or as negative charges moving from the negative terminal to the positive terminal. The two descriptions are exactly equivalent, and only phenomena such as the Hall effect can show that charge carriers in ordinary metals are negatively-charged. In other materials, like semiconductors or inside a battery, the charge carriers can, in fact, be positive.

    No. The negative terminal (black) is the source of electrons.

    "Impedance" is generalized resistance, moron. It consists of a real part ("resistance") and an imaginary part ("reactance"). The impedance of the cinder block is probably nearly completely real, and it's assuredly non-zero. You're a fucking idiot, and so is your wacko friend ghost.

    - Warren
  18. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member


    YOU do know... light can energize electrons on the surface of a charged object..
    i.e.. solar panels work... at the 2 volt yellow light level. generally...
    and depending on the composition and charge level of a concrete block in the wind, light could be sufficient to set loose any number of electrons from that block and into the air...

    and what?? no electrons move in a curcuit??
    and while yes.. positive ions can move in a battery.. with a liquid center..

    postive ions never move in a wire.... ever.. gesh..

    AND they dont move in semiconductors either... you are just stupid..

    its holes... and holes are not ions.. and they are Not charges.. they are the lack of an electron... thus acting as a postive charge...
    the positive ions themselves never move... gesh.. moron.

    and i suggest you get a volt meter that can show you polarity and go and check your car...
    the red cable is the negative terminal...

    and impedense... is never used in dc... you are just stupid.
    you can call it what you want... but its only relevent in ac.

    you are the idiot sir... and it is so sad.

  19. chroot Crackpot killer Registered Senior Member

    I know allllllll about the photoelectric effect, band gaps, and the energy necessary to promote electrons into the conduction band. I know that the work function defines the minimum energy that can remove an electron from a metal. I'm asking YOU, what is the work function for concrete?

    I never said that.

    I never said that either.

    I never said ions. I said "positive charges," i.e. holes. Learn how to read.

    The red terminal is the positive terminal. Go try it yourself, shit for brains.

    I can certainly use the word "impedance" to describe resistance, since impedance is generalized resistance.

    If I'm the idiot, why are you the one who keeps saying dumb shit that isn't true?

    - Warren
  20. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

    FIRST of all you are assuming the work function would be considered as an uncharged body...

    if the block was charged with alot of electrons... they would change this value or voltage point at which ionization can occur...

    and i only used words like idiot and moron, after you did...

    and i will try it...

  21. CANGAS Registered Senior Member

    IF there is a valid antigravity concept being reported, THEN remember that working in darkness is a surprisingly effective way of hiding a secret. It may or may not be a crucial methodology.

    Magnetic monopoles, in a crude but effective form, have, to paraphrase the Beetles, gone in and out of patent. You take a hollow sphere and cut it into segments like pieces of a sphere cut into segments (? ). Then you magnetize the segments so that their inner surfaces are one specific pole and the outer surfaces are another pole. Take your choice. Then you force the segments back into a spherical shape and stick them together so they stay in the shape of a sphere. Viola! A big magnetic monopole.

    It would be a little surprising that, if the antigravity concept is valid, a battery and a battery charger would give equal results. Batteries are good sources of straight line "waves" ( straight line wave, get it? ) of constant voltage current. Many chargers output chopped waves, or, square waves, of DC current, which is alternately a spike of voltage somewhat higher than the battery voltage, then a time of zero voltage, then repeat.

    This is such an easy and simple science experiment to perform in reality, it is entertaining to see how many science enthusiasts actually do it, and how many endlessly theorize.

    PS: Why argue about scientific notation of positive voltage versus conventional notation of positive voltage? If anyone ever actually does the science experiment it will either do nothing, make it weigh more or make it weigh less. Who cares how Ben Franklin influenced the notation?

    PSS: The current current theory is that any conductor is a conductor because many of its atoms have a very loose hold on an outer electron so that the conductor is full of an electron gas which is ready, willing and able to be shoved around by any voltage wave that wanders along. They say that's where electrons come from, currently.
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2006

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