What is a lesbian?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Orleander, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. Myles Registered Senior Member

    It all depends opn where she has her genital warts. If they arte on her .
    vagins, she's a woman. If on her penis she's a man.

    I have never figured out why wart doesn't rhyme with fart. Any idea , Orleander ?
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  3. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    They don't??? Fart, Wart, Myles....yep, they all rhyme.
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  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

    how can they not, its the last 3(i think) letters of a word that determine if they rhyme or not. If they are the same (as in this case) then the words rhyme
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  7. John99 Banned Banned

    I suspect it is psychological. If you sew a penis onto a woman it is still a female. I suppose the women in the op sees it this way also.
  8. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    so she is in love with DNA and not a body
  9. orcot Valued Senior Member

    Oh yes let me feel your strands
  10. Chatha big brown was screwed up Registered Senior Member

    One question though, though rhetorical, why are almost all artists bisexual?
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2008
  11. Woody Musical Creationist Registered Senior Member

    I came across a few presentations that show all women are actually bi-sexual and that it changes over time:


    Exhibit #1

    Gender differences in the flexibility of sexual orientation: A multidimensional retrospective assessment

    Kinnish, K.K. and Strassberg, D.S., Department of Psychology, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah, USA

    The flexibility of sexual orientation in men and women was examined by assessing change in orientation over time for three dimensions of sexual orientation; sexual fantasy, romantic attraction, and sexual behavior. The primary purpose of the study was to determine if there are gender differences in flexibility of sexual orientation and how such differences are manifested across different dimensions of orientation.

    A total of 762 heterosexual, bisexual, and gay/lesbian men and women, aged 36 - 60, completed a written questionnaire in which they retrospectively rated their sexual orientation on a 7-point Kinsey scale for 5-year increments, beginning at age 16. Cumulative change scores were derived for each of the three dimensions by summing the differences between successive Kinsey ratings.

    Gender differences were observed for most classification groups. Specifically, there were significant differences in reported change in orientation over time between gay men and lesbian women, between heterosexual men and women, but not between bisexual men and women. The observed differences were in the predicted direction; women reported greater change in orientation then men. Possible explanations and implications of these findings are discussed.

    Exhibit #2

    Will the real lesbians please stand up? Diversity in sexual-minority women's desires and relationships over time

    Diamond, L.M., University of Utah, USA

    (Many sexual-minority (i.e., nonheterosexual) women report inconsistencies among their sexual attractions, sexual behaviors, and sexual identities, as well as discontinuities in each of these domains over time. For example, some self-identified lesbians continue to experience sexual attractions for men; others have never had same-sex sexual contact; still others initiate heterosexual relationships after long periods of exclusive same-sex behavior. Such cases complicate efforts to identify prototypical sexual "careers" among lesbian vs. bisexual vs. heterosexual women. In this presentation, I present longitudinal data bearing on this problem and identify areas for future theoretical and empirical study. Specifically, I summarize findings from 2-year and 5-year follow-up interviews with 80 sexual-minority women who were first interviewed in 1995 when they were between 16-23 years of age. Changes in sexual attractions, behaviors, and identities are reviewed, as well as associations among these domains over time. Particular attention is devoted to describing and explaining discrepancies between women's attractions and behaviors, and highlighting individual difference dimensions (such as motivesfor sexual contact) that help propel women with similar patterns of attraction onto divergent sexual-developmental trajectories. Implications of these findings for folk distinctions between "real" and "fake/bisexual" lesbians, as well as for the hypothesis of female sexual plasticity, are discussed.

    Exhibit #3

    Sexuality and identity, how to navigate between different relationships discourses.

    Ohnstad, A., University College Oslo, Oslo, Norway

    This paper presents a case from my project Invisible or Self-illuminating: Development of identity and identity creating processes among lesbians; Dilemmas and challenges in self-understanding of the marginalized.

    This case, I believe, illustrates how it is possible to navigate between a lesbian and a heterosexual relationship discourse, while still maintaining an identity as a lesbian.

    The project from which this case is drawn is a qualitative study of the histories told by approximately 20 female clients in therapeutic contexts. The data have been collected during the past 5 years and are used to provide some answers to questions central to the project: body signs, directions of sexual desire, positioning in sexual encounters, and exposition as well as understanding of the self. A key focus of the project is on the contours of the personal histories of these clients. Analyses of these data will serve as the basis for follow-up interviews focused on these themes. In addition, a group of non-clients will be interviewed. The case presented is drawn from this group.

    A woman named Frida Johnson came to see me in 1998. She knew I was a lesbian psychotherapist and her complaint was about her general health problems and problems concerning relationship with women partners. In the beginning, we had 70 weekly consultations lasting of 50 minutes each for the next 5 years. After a time, we had consultations every fortnight.

    I have obtained informed consent from Frida to use her story as presented in these sessions. In addition, the Norwegian Social Science Data Services and The National Committee for Medical Research Ethics have granted approval to use these and other data in my study.

    While many themes were taken up in the therapeutic sessions, my presentation will focus on one main theme involving the question: Who am I when my women partner is caring and kind but not pretty and too overweight?

    Frida was accustomed to having very pretty women as partners but often these relationships were difficult because these partners were often unkind to her. She then began a relationship with Nina where she gained much emotional support, but after a time felt little to no sexual attraction. Both partners had numerous health problems and Nina was in an unstable work situation. One problem reported by Frida was that although she was used to being very supportive to other people and especially towards her partners, she had few ideas how to take care of herself. And she hoped that Nina had some ideas about how to help her with this problem. Frida's relationship to Nina made her feel pretty, slim, and successful at least "outside" but not so often "inside".

    Their relationship lasted for 3 years and during this time Frida came with many complaint about Nina's appearance: the fact Nina had to buy her clothes at men's store, her unhealthy eating habits and lack of energy. During our sessions, I often expressed my wonderment to Nina about how she could keep the relationship going while being so dissatisfied. Nina responded by saying that she believed in the relationship.
    One day in therapy, Nina reported that something very strange had happened. She stated that she felt embarrassed to tell me about this and that it was painful to talk about. Nina, it seemed, had fallen in love with Peter, a male colleague. It was strange she said that this had happened after defining herself as a lesbian for more than 17 years. She said: "My body is lesbian and I don't feel my attraction to women will change and I will miss sex with other women… Peter is much more feminine in his appearance than Nina: he is slim and tidy, while Nina has the belly of a bear. I feel like a traitor when I tell other people and my lesbian friends about this!"

    Frida's way out of this dilemma is to define her attraction to Peter as an attraction to his feminine sides: he is a modern man, a good cook and a good conversationalist. Peter, however, is a little anxious that he is not good enough for her. Frida, on her part, is unused to relate to men, as well as being unused to receive compliments. She feels she is best at giving compliments.

    How the rest of Frida's tale develops will be discussed in the paper.

    Exhibit #4

    Male sexual arousal is target specific. Female sexual arousal is bisexual.

    Chivers, M. L., Rieger, G. Latty, E., & Bailey, J. M. Department of Psychology, Northwestern University, Evanston, IL 60208

    Sexual arousal is target-specific in men. Heterosexual men are more aroused by female than male sexual stimuli and homosexual men show the opposite pattern. It is unknown if women show target-specific sexual arousal patterns. This presentation addresses the following questions: (1) Is female sexual arousal target specific? (2) Are differences in women’s and men’s sexual arousal patterns due to measurement artifacts? (3) If sex of target is not a determining factor in female genital response, what is it that women are responding to?

    Exhibit #5

    Erotic plasticity and female sexuality

    Baumeister, R., Department of Psychology, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH, USA

    Erotic plasticity refers to the degree to which the sex drive is shaped by social, cultural, and situational forces. The core idea is that women have more erotic plasticity than men; in other words, female sexuality is relatively more cultural, whereas male sexuality is more natural. As evidence, individual women exhibit more change across time in their sexual responses; most specific sociocultural variable have larger effects on women than men; and general attitudes are less closely linked to specific behaviors for women than men (indicating greater context-specific responding).


    Additional Exhibits

    Exhibit #6


    Course: Psychology 2316
    Psychology of Sexuality

    Sexual orientation

    Little is known about female-female sexual activity in non-western cultures. Evidence for female-to-female sexual behaviour was found by Ford and Beachinn in only 17 out of the 76 societies they studied. This cross-cultural evidence is consistent with data from our own culture. Here too, males are more likely to develop sexual interest in, or romantic relationships with, members of their own sex. (Katz, 1995; Laumann et al., 1994).

    Erotic Plasticity

    • Baumeister R. (2000)- The degree to which a person's sex drive can be shaped and altered by cultural, social, and situational pressures.
    • Lack of plasticity: A person's sexuality is more rigidly pattered early in life, as a result of biological and/or childhood influences.

    Women's sexuality

    • Study hints at a finding reported recently by other researchers-that women's sexual orientation tends to be less strongly felt and potentially more fluid and changeable than men's (Diamond, 2000; Peplau & Garnets, 2000).
    • Little evidence that biological factors are a major determinant of women's sexual orientation: "It remains more subject to personal choice and social influence" (Baumeister 2000, p.356).

    Women's sexual orientation

    • Women, regardless of sexual orientation, respond to both male and female stimuli (Chivers & others, 2002).
    • More malleable: Victorian times seen as sexless till sexual desire awaken up male.
    • More women spend periods of their lives identifying with different sexual orientations. Emphasize individual characteristics rather than gender when selecting a partner (Fox,1996).
  12. superstring01 Moderator

    See: below.

    Sexuality is such a personal thing. As human beings we want -- no, we NEED -- to classify things. We draw comfort and power by our ability to categorize a person in a certain way. We want a person to be good or evil. White or black. Gay or straight. Classifying a thing so "clearly" gives our mind a permanent reference point. Permanent, unchanging, things alleviate our minds from the tiring obligation of thinking, evaluating and judging all things at all times. When a person is a specific "thing" we can navigate life easier: "Friend... me like" "Enemy... me don't like" "Gay... me like" "Straight... me don't like"

    Is a guy who fucks a trans-sexual gay? It's more about the fucker than the fuckee. Did he like the "woman" because of her girl parts or because of her boy parts (that may still be present)? Was it the presence of the boobies? Or was he just into some weird tranny shit? Some people fit the mold perfectly (I'm a hundred percent gay: nothing about females or the female form in any way interests me beyond scientific curiosity). Some people aren't as clear. Not being one, doesn't necessarily make them the other.

    True: But it's not the fact that she was a he, or the "change" he underwent that interests you... right? I'm guessing not. It's probably "her" amazing similarity to your ideal female form that makes you go, "hhhhhmmm. I'd hit it... if only." And that makes you a guy and a very straight one.

  13. Reiku Banned Banned

    And, most Lesbians from a psychological angle, which have relationships with other woman who tolerate the use of male-sex toys or even organs, can be classed as possibly bisexual. It just may be a choice of the person, to class themselves as more of one thing, than the other.
  14. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

    M*W: I just wanted to point out that lesbians do not always have masculine features. I've seen gorgeous lesbians who would never want to touch a man. Sorry guys. One lesbian I've met who is damn good looking is Cheryl Crane, Lana Turner's daughter, the one who stabbed Johnny Stampanato, Lana's lover. He raped Cheryl as a young girl. Thanks, Lana (mommie dearest #two). Look at Portia de Rossi. She ain't hard to look at! I guess butchy type females are attracted to each other, too, but that's not always the case. It's not what's on the outside (i.e. genetalia), it's what's on the inside (i.e. brain). The brain is the most erotic sex organ.

    DISCLAIMER: I'm heterosexual as far as I know.
  15. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    My friend calls herself a 'lipstick lesbian'
    All the women she has been with are very very butch. When I first saw Cam (her current girlfriend) I seriously thought she was a guy. And not because of the way she was dressed or a haircut, she was just built like a guy. I can't see how people think you aren't born gay, cuz with Cam, it had to be obvious to her parents and everyone else.
  16. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Woman often say this...with a hint of ambiguity.
  17. Orleander OH JOY!!!! Valued Senior Member

    "as far as I know" means "I haven't met the right woman yet"

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  18. Reiku Banned Banned

    It may just be, that MW says this, because she reflects on never having actually tried. But other than that, the statement itself sounds like she doesn't have any other reason to suggest she would. My bets are that she is hetro without a doubt.
  19. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

  20. Carcano Valued Senior Member

  21. Reiku Banned Banned

    I find it quite strange, but something perhaps understandable from immaturity, when still mentally developing. Nothing against you though.
  22. PsychoticEpisode It is very dry in here today Valued Senior Member

    Simply: A lesbian is just another gal trying to assume a traditional male role.
  23. Reiku Banned Banned

    Not true. In some cases, a woman may take a totally differential role, such as acting the woman; so psychologically, their partner in their eyes are the man. Not themselves as such.

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