What is "Rape Culture"?

Save it.

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And? Where exactly do you imagine I was addressing anything other than, you know, what I actually did? I haven't been carrying on with you throughout this thread. Yes, I know, anyone who doesn't agree with you must all sound alike, right?

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Hey, I enjoy a navel-gazing, blow by blow recap, pseudo stream of consciousness as much as the next guy, but this borders on ridiculous. I asked a simple question about a news story you cited, with the equally simple intent of questioning whether it illustrated what you seemed to claim it did. I even provided counterpoint, from women, that objections to certain apparel did not necessarily hold a one-to-one relationship to rape culture/male supremacy motives. Instead of simply agreeing with this trivial fact, you seem to get overly defensive, to the point of blathering your way right past the simple observation.

So in that same vein, how would other school dress codes meant to lessen distractions (like barring gang-affiliated clothing) play into rape culture? What, they don't? OMG!

 

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All style and no substance is great, Syne, if you're looking to release a Top Ten pop song.

If you actually paid attention and offered some genuine arguments, you might actually come up with something worth the time. But since you can't be bothered:

One answer is that between tributary and symptomatic, it's a dynamic interrelationship. This answer would point to the relationship between gendertyping, sexual roles, and what any garment is for.

Or perhaps I might simply laugh off the general stupidity of it all and note that I don't expect the reiteration of what is pretty straightforward will take this time, since you missed so widely the first. This point would orbit the posts from others I quoted. Those people reject the proposition of "rape culture" according to some fear of unfairly typing men, yet we see time and again that the misandrist typing of men as "savages by nature", &c., does not, in fact, come from feminists or analyses of rape culture but, quite apparently and repeatedly, from those who disdain the idea according to the straw man about stereotyping.

It isn't the proposition of rape culture that types men as rapists. Infinite Prevention Advocacy, male prerogative, man's inclination, the boys can't help but be distracted, and so on; these are all assertions against women, and in order to do it, the misogynists only need to indict all males. Bowser and Milkweed, for instance, are just really clumsy examples, but they are also quick distillations by which we can actually watch the transformation from complaining about stereotying men straight into actually stereotyping men. The larger societal manifestations are not particularly less simpleminded; they're just a bit more sublimated in their expressions.

(#637↑)​

When you skip over these parts, Syne, certain complaints―

―are just silly.

All you ever wanted was that I should simply agree with you.

Two points about that:

(1) It would help if you actually addressed the issues.

(2) Similarly, it would help if you started making sense.​

 

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Avoiding the actual questions while repeatedly criticizing the manner of the questioning would typically be considered trolling from anyone who doesn't share your ideology. Obviously you're not interested in a dialog. So be it.

 

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Mod Note ― Strangeness

I am uncertain how, but I managed to edit a post earlier today while attempting to post one of my own; that edited post has been restored to its original condition.

My apologies; I think I can see what happened, but it's a complicated explanation involving a bad cut and paste, and then editing the wrong post to correct the problem.

I think.

Nearest I can figure. Except there's a step missing ....

Meanwhile, yes, the post has been restored to its original condition. My sincere apologies.

 

All or Nothing

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Martha C. Nussbaum↱, profesor of law and philosophy at University of Chicago:

In the winter of 1968, when I was an enterprising twenty-year-old, I had a big crush on a well-known actor who shortly became another of America's beloved TV dads. He was a really good actor, and at that time he was playing a major stage role in New York. He was then around forty. After going out with him a couple of times, I asked him back to my off-campus apartment. I had had some sexual experience, but not much; however, I decided to be daring, since it was the late 60's and I felt that I should join the culture. Unlike the Cosby women, I certainly intended to consent to intercourse. What I did not consent to was the gruesome, violent, and painful assault that he substituted for intercourse. I remember screaming for help, to no avail, and I remember him saying, "It's all part of sex."

I never seriously considered going to the police, even though there was a lot of forensic evidence. I was just too embarrassed. I didn't even go to a doctor. And I thought, with good reason, that the police would dismiss the issue because I had after all consented to some kind of sex act. Even now, the law is not well equipped to handle that type of case, since consent is usually understood to be an all or nothing matter, despite the fact that there is a world of difference between what I intended to consent to and what happened to me. I've taught rape law and read a large amount on this topic and have never found discussion of this question. This, at least, we can fix, with more nuanced accounts of legal consent in the case of violent practices.​

And the price:

Mine has been a selfish and self-protective response. I do wonder whether even a futile complaint could have prevented other harms. Still, to make one's life all about a harm, since that is what protracted litigation would have done, seems to me a sacrifice that morality does not demand.​

If she kisses you, can you force her to blow you?

If she blows you, can you force her to fuck you?

If she fucks you, can you force her to take it up the ass?

You know, since she consented to something, and is it really an all or nothing proposition?

Can you justify this with evopsych? Sociobiology?

Have you the courage to say it up front: "Hey, baby, want to go back to my place so I can hurt the hell out of you?"

Tell me, please: What part of sexual intercourse necessarily demands injury?

And when women are treated like shit for reporting rapes↑, the price that Nussbaum countenances every time she recalls what happened earns justification.

There are so many facets, so many pathways for inquiry.
____________________

Notes:

Nussbaum, Martha C. "Why Some Men Are Above the Law". The Huffington Post. 15 January 2016. HuffingtonPost.com. 17 January 2016. http://huff.to/239dBWd

 

Heritage

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This is how it goes:

Since [George] Will seems to think that one story can make a case, let me offer another story of a young woman in college who went to the house of a man she had known her whole life. In fact, they had grown up together. She went to this man's house of her own free will, engaged in foreplay, took off her own clothing, and even agreed to engage in sex.

That excludes her from the category of a “legitimate” rape victim in Will's eyes, does it not? And if she talks about it or files a complaint, she should be ignored, right? After all, she must be just looking to get that “coveted status” and the privilege that comes with it.

So here is the story: When I was 19, I decided to have sex with a man I had known my whole life. I went to his house in my favorite outfit—jeans and a trendy sweater. Under it were my favorite matching baby blue bra and panties. We made out on his sofa, and I followed willingly when he led me to his room.

By the time we got to his bed, I was naked from the waist up. I remember being ashamed of the tiny pooch of my belly, worrying that he would find an extra inch of flesh unacceptable. I shucked my own panties and jeans before I climbed into bed.

You will have to forgive me if I cannot offer a complete narrative of what happened after I entered the bed. I know how guys who excuse rape, like George Will, feel about women who pass out during sex—that they deserve whatever happens. So I know that some will mock me when I freely admit that between pain, shock, and blood-loss I lost consciousness several times.

The man who sexually assaulted me did it with such force that he tore my vagina from the opening through the cervix. I gushed blood, which he later licked up as if he were a vampire. He continued to pound me after he had torn me, banging my intestines for what felt like hours and spreading bacteria throughout my peritoneal cavity.

I drove myself to a friend's house, and she took me to the hospital. By the time that I got there, I was in critical condition. I coded twice before they could get me stabilized. I saw the white light and had a near-death experience. Surgery and blood transfusions saved my life.

You'd think that with that kind of an injury, I'd definitely experience the status and privilege that George Will claims sexual assault victims are afforded. Everyone would believe my story, and no one would dare say that a woman who had been so brutalized wanted it or had it coming. Right?

But the police would not even file a report or record my statement. In so many words, they explained to me that no reasonable jury could believe that taking off my panties wasn't a tacit agreement to having my vagina ripped and my intestines pounded and the exterior of my colon bathed in semen. As a single woman, I had entered the home of a single man, so it did not matter how much of his bedroom was bathed in my blood, or that there was a trail of it out of his door and in my car. I had engaged in foreplay with him, so whatever followed, even if it killed me, was fair game.

(Beisner↱)​

Now that the hard part is over, go read the rest; you can learn a lot about the privilege of being raped.

Throughout my life, my status as survivor has afforded me any number of privileges. For example, I had the privilege of having preterm labor and miscarriages because the assault compromised my cervix. I had the privilege of having my babies by cesarean section. And the surgery that I needed a couple of years ago to fix the long-term consequences of the assault on my body was truly a privilege—it gave me the status of being temporarily unemployable.

Who wouldn’t get in line for that?​

The list goes on.

This is the thing about rape culture: None of this is new.

We should take a moment, though, for the men, especially those who have forgotten the times of their own lives. It is, after all, true that tearing 'em up like that―what one California judge called "shredded"↑―would have been going too far.

Fuckin' 'em 'til they can't walk, though? Now that was delivering the goods.

No, really, she'd thank you for it, later. At least, that was the buzz once upon a time.

It's just a guy thing.

So, again: What part of sexual intercourse necessarily demands injury?

If you need to hurt a person like that in order to get off, you're doing it wrong.
____________________

Notes:

Beisner, Lynn. "Here Are All the 'Privileges' I've Experienced as a Survivor of Sexual Assault". RH Reality Check. 10 June 2014. RHRealityCheck.org. 18 January 2016. http://bit.ly/1JbZUiQ

 

It would seem that rape has been on a decline for the past 20 years...
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...-over-past-two-decades-—-so-all-violent-crime

As for the crap about an epidemic of rape on college campuses, I quote the Bureau of Justice...

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176

6.1 per 1000 is a far cry from 1 in 5. People are really pushing for the notion of a "Rape Culture." Why? I don't know why.

 

Until a few weeks ago I had assumed that rape culture does not exist in my country and is a strawman used by feminist to push their plans.

Then in the night before new years eve a few hundred of young men molested women near big train stations in several cities. The police was not able to stop it. Or preferred to look away. Was understaffed, underequipped. Threatened themselves and spat on when they tried to stop it. There are hints that these groups had organized the attacks, that is was planned.

Now I know, that regardless if such culture existed here in the past years, it has arrived. Or evolved.

A group of young persons even tried to stone two transsexuals to death in this night. Also something that I have troubles to believe, but it happened, policemen who rescued the two transsexuals witnessing this as well as automated cameras and passerbys.

I hate to see this. All my hope for a free and equal society where gender and sex have been overcome, tolerance is the ruler, was destroyed. Now I clearly see why women feel afraid, and that transsexuals are nowhere near accepted - even threatened to be killed in public just because of their choice of style of life. It doesn't help if 99% of the population are tolerant, if the remaining 1% are able to act this way and harm women and transsexuals.

Someone is turning the wheel backwards here. In the eighties, there were transsexual pop stars, and they were liked. E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_(performer)

Then it seems to have changed. While the discussion about gender and equality became louder, acceptance actually became less. And now my country is only little better than the countries we always looked down upon and frowned at.

Bleh. That's the only word that I have to describe this.

 

It's because you don't want to know why.

Equality is a step up for those who suffer inequality. Those who enjoy the benefits of inequality, however, see their "rights" being violated.

Women are human beings, and have human rights. But this means men can't treat them as history shows we have, and that makes a lot of men angry.

So they do things like invent straw men to complain about while ignoring what people are really saying.

You know, kind of like you: Ask a question pretending ignorance, ignore the answers, complain about a fallacy of your own invention. You're certainly not original on that count.

But your need to transform the proposition of rape culture into something it isn't so that you might pretend a path for denouncing it is but one of your contributions, and it's significant.

You're still responding to your own straw man, Bowser.

Let us know when you're ready and able to deal with the real thing.

 

I know half a dozen women personally who have been sexually assaulted. None went to the police. I don't know how many of them would have appeared on that "6.1 per 1000" number you are using.

And some people don't want to believe the problem exists. Why is that? Hard to say.

 

That's not what your linked video addressed - you appear to have mistaken it, or possibly not actually listened to it. Or perhaps you are unfamiliar with the entire matter of rape culture/male supremacy, so that a "motive" characteristic of a rape culture would be difficult for you to recognize in the first place?

Also, nobody here has argued that all objections to apparel by anyone had any relationship to the rape culture being discussed. So if your point was to counter that imaginary contention, it was in the wrong thread at least.

 

Australia Just Says No to American Pickup Artist

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Pickup Artist: Jeff Allen, of Real Social Dynamics, in photo via Simon & Schuster.​

In truth, the first time I ever heard of Australia's character tests it was a denunciation, accusing the nation of screening out Jews. And, in truth, someone could probably find an example to serve the point.

That was over twenty years ago; Australian character tests just don't come up much in the American discourse, so they remain somewhat of a mystery on our side of the Pacific. And while many might hesitate, and say this or that about liberty to travel, it's not like Australia is somehow unique in telling internationals they cannot enter the country owing to some failure of character.

But such standards do make the news from time to time, and this week is one of those times:

Aw, maybe these guys could just pool their resources and find a nice uninhabited island to claim, or a space shuttle that could offer them a little time out and some perspective. In the meantime, though, one self-proclaimed pick up artist — Jeff Allen — is no longer welcome in Australia, having failed the country’s “character test.”

Allen, who’s a part of the U.S. “dating coaching company” Real Social Dynamics, had been touring the country, bringing his special message of how to finesse the hookup world (he claims his speciality is negotiating threesomes), when it became apparent he was not entirely welcome. An online petition to have him deported garnered 67,000 signatures.

Allen is already known to the ladies in certain circles — three years ago he gained a degree of local notoriety in San Francisco for his interestingly decorated “Freedom Van,” or as he hilariously calls it, his “rape van.” He also became known for telling his OK Cupid dates who decided not to meet with him to “eat a bag of d__ks” and, “you sound like a pain in the ass.” He’s also told another woman, with whom he’d had an unsuccessful date, to “Kill yourself n____r.” A 2011 seminar video shows him bragging that he recently “picked up a girl by pretending to be retarded” and then demonstrating his schtick. One PUA site describes him, funnily enough, as being “credited with a talent for empathy.”​

Mary Elizabeth Williams↱ might seem to be enjoying herself too much in the Salon report, but such metrics are entirely subjective; to the other, one might reasonably wonder why she shouldn't enjoy the hell out of herself when news like this passes across her desktop.

The "Jeff Free Tour" of Australia is canceled. According to reports, Vibe, a hotel chain in Australia, canceled RSD bookings for the tour after social media pressure reminded the hospitality company just who they were accommodating; RSD apparently attempted to book under a different name, and Vibe dispatched a memo advising hotel managers to be on the lookout for this crew.

Then on Monday, it was reported that Allen had “left of his own accord on Sunday” after his visa was revoked. Immigration Minister Peter Dutton told Australian’s ABC News that he finds RSD’s seminars “pretty repugnant,” adding, “Full praise to the department and the officers who have identified these people, who are completely without legitimate cause to be here, don’t meet our character tests and in this instance the visa has been cancelled.” And MP Fiona Richardson, Minister for the Prevention of Family Violence and Minister for Women, said Monday on Twitter, “No place for RSD misogynistic practices or harassment of women in Victoria.”​

One wonders what RSD expected; in 2014, Australia similarly rejected RSD executive coach Julien Blanc, whose slogan is apparently, "Diss fatties, bang hotties". Ms. Williams' 2014 report↱ for Salon would be funny except for the fact that it isn't:

But Blanc, who has recently set his “Diss Fatties Bang Hotties”-centric Twitter feed to private, is not the only member of the Real Social Dynamics team to come under scrutiny. Meet his colleague Owen “Tyler” Cook — who also has a charming trail of terrible advice and grotesque brags in social media history as well, including a clip in which he educates students about how to approach women by telling them to imagine raping a dead lion. In another, he describes an encounter with a “a full, slut whore slut” in which the woman wasn’t into it but he proceeded because “I’m never seeing this bitch again. I don’t care.” And though it’s not really rape culture relevant, don’t miss the clip where he’s laughingly presenting his son to the audience and saying, “You’re an accident! That’s right, you’re an accident!”​

Australia revoked Blanc's visa; Brazil vowed to deny him one; the United Kingdom refused to grant him a visa. Petitions and protests in several countries have encouraged governments to refuse Blanc entry. Singapore has formally banned his entry, as well. In Japan↱, officials fretted over the question of a work visa, but also noted that at least one of his videos appears to include evidence of "forcible indecency" (kyōsei waisetsu, 強制わいせつ).

My present understanding of the character test is that it intends to screen out people with higher likelihood of causing harm to Australians. It seems almost beyond question that a professional rape advocate should fail such a character test.
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Notes:

Wikipedia. "Julien Blanc". 19 January 2016. En.Wikipedia.org. 19 January 2016. http://bit.ly/1P45Evx

Williams, Mary Elizabeth. "'Pick-up artist' can't score in Australia: No shelter or visa for 'repugnant' hook-up coach". Salon. 19 January 2016. Salon.com. 19 January 2016. http://bit.ly/1Sv3ur2

—————. "Pickup artist culture gets a blunt rejection". Salon. 14 November 2014. Salon.com. 19 November 2016. http://bit.ly/1Nj5zP5

 

And I think it's about time more countries (ahem! cough!) have the discussion about free speech and advocacy of violence against women. What stands out, aside from the fact that Australia actually refers to it as a character test, is that some countries are willing to take definitive stands against this form of bigotry. That is to say, sure, pretty much every country controls visas; nobody just hands them out at random. In the U.S., though, we have a few problems left to hash out in our discourse about free speech and advocacy of violence, and somewhere between remiss if I don't and excessive if I do, there really is no good use in ignoring the fact that everything gets really, really complicated for some reason when our discourse occurs at the intersection of women and human rights.

Pickup artistry is woven into our culture; nobody who ever dropped a cheap line should suggest otherwise, and it's not like cheap lines haven't had their vogue in masculine humor.

But this post-pathos pretense admiring antisocial attitudes and behaviors, while desperately stupid in pretty much any context, really doesn't have much room to operate in the misogynistic context; it isn't just rape advocacy, but also a Rapist Identity movement.

When it comes to questions of free speech the American tradition, even when societal attitudes have finally shifted; maybe it's also hard for me to imagine us forbidding Hillsong leaders entry for their bigotry in general. Think about the idea that we entertain, you know, say, Kevin Swanson. And, honestly, I'm certain Australia has at least a few notorious puas, but I'm pretty certain the Rape Van is a uniquely American export. Who, really, would we be banning? One of the other "coaches" from some other organization, I suppose, but RSD seems ... yeah. Very, very American.

It's just a striking contrast; I actually have a hard time imagining my fellow Americans standing up for human rights like that. The implications under our Constitution are not impossibly problematic, but some days it seems like standing against misogyny in these United States of America is to stand against the United States of America. There's an ocean between us on this one, and I couldn't tell you how it work on this side of the Pacific in the legal context.

But, you know. Imagine our Republican Party. It's a presidential cycle, after all.

And the press has to toddle back and forth with the whole discussion shaped by sound bytes having nothing to do with policy.

No, really. Can you imagine how badly that would go over in the U.S.?

I don't know. Free speech? Free enterprise? Maybe bust out the Duggars in support of traditional heterosexual values?

Oh, the political disaster.

And I couldn't even begin to predict how long before Americans actually get around to the national conscience, the public discourse, actually giving a proper damn about women.

It really is a striking contrast.

 

But if we are going to believe that 1 in 5 women have been sexually assaulted, we are looking at a number that is 200 in every 1000. Are we then to assume that most, if not nearly all, women do not report sexual assault?

Because the numbers don't support the idea. Yet some people are pushing it as though it is fact. Why is that? Hard to say. All I see is a wedge being driven between men and women, where men are portrayed as being sexual brutes. Heck, just being male on some campuses requires that you take a class on rape education.

 

No. Your numbers don't support the idea--which hardly matters anyways, as the notion is NOT dependent upon these fucking numbers, as has been made abundantly clear countless times at this point. But anyhow... --others have provided info regarding numbers and percentages of women who do not report rape, and their reasons for not doing so, again, countless times.

But whatever... At this point I'm convinced you're just trolling. Actually, I kinda was after the repeated insistence that you haven't heard rape jokes, and have only encountered rape in film or television, like, twice. Seriously?

So you're saying you've never watched, I don't know, South Park, Family Guy, SNL, I could go on four fucking hours here? But is this what you're saying: that you've never seen the three aforementioned shows?

 

It is my experience that most women who are sexually assaulted do not report it. The National Research Council recently did a study and found that 80% of sexual assaults go unreported. (In fact they suggested new methods by which the Bureau of Justice Statistics might be able to gather more accurate data.)

It is a fact that the problem exists. I see it in studies done on it, and I have seen it in my own life. Some examples:

A woman was recruited by the Air Force. She was flown to a base in California on a military aircraft, where her recruiter then got her drunk and tried to have sex with her. She fought him off. The recruiter told her that if she told anyone that she could be arrested for unspecified violations of military rules that would land her in a military prison. She did not go to the police.

A woman was invited onto a Naval base to see a friend. While there, one of his friends took her aside and talked for a while. They kissed. He then demanded she go down on him, and told her than if she didn't she might not be able to leave the base. He also said that if she told anyone else - well, she was in a Navy town, and she didn't want the Navy to come after her. She didn't go to the police either.

A woman was at a conference with her advisor. After the conference she was in a hot tub with one of her colleague. The advisor got in, the colleague got out and the advisor started "feeling her up." She was told that if she wanted to get her degree she would have to let it happen and not tell anyone. She kept quiet about it for over two years, until she heard of several other students he had done this to.

Do you feel that discussing racism "drives a wedge" between different races? Do you feel that discussing police abuse cases "drives a wedge" between police and civilians? I don't think it does.

Now sexual assault? Rape? That DEFINITELY drives a wedge between men and women. Yet some people don't think it needs to be addressed. Why is that? Hard to say.

I don't see that. I see it simply as describing a problem that needs to be solved.

 

In my life, a deep wedge between men and women has been driven by the fact of the continual and everpresent possibility of sexual assault. Not the discussion of it, but the threat of it - usually not discussed at all, but avoided.

And if there are men on college campuses in the US who do not see that, a mandatory class on rape education is probably necessary - if only to make sure the blame is placed where it belongs, and none of these men can claim ignorance.

 

You know, I'm uncertain what anyone is supposed to say, Bowser, since you're not really paying attention, anyway.

It is rape culture itself that portrays men as sexual brutes; I've noted Infinite Prevention Advoacy; Milkweed, who disdains the proposition of rape culture for reasons similar to yours, provides a chimp humping a frog to death and explains it as a common link; evopsych and sociobiology assign evolutionary factors to explain and, by presentation, justify masculine sexual belligerence; we've even seen it argued in considerations of misogyny that a woman doesn't have the right to leave her house and expect to not be sexually harassed. Coming soon, confessed rapists explaining themselves, and watch for those who blame human masculinity.

But you argue against your own straw man; this fallacy is all you bring: You asked about rape culture; some answered, but you ignore those answers in order to pursue a demon of your own making.

Do not blame rape culture on those who would identify and address it.

It is disrespectful, unfair, and above all, dangerous.