Religious experience I am not Proselytizing. That statement is anti-religious propaganda; to insinuate that I am trying to force or manipulate others into a religion. People are free to search for themselves - which is EXACTLY what I am encouraging people to do - search for yourself. Don't just take peoples word about this stuff (even if they are intellectually superior). Hit the deck and find out for yourself if God exists - but Go to The Source. The topic is about religious experiences. I am simply pointing people to search out their own. In my understanding and terminology (which agrees with the Biblical Greek language) the word RELIGION is the diametrically OPPOSITE word as PERSONAL, EXPERIENTIAL, RELATIONSHIP with God. Just as Black vs. White - or Hot vs. Cold. I am not trying to get people to be outwardly religious (follow my religion)and follow a bunch legalism (religion). The opposite is true. I am simply encouraging people to search out their OWN personal relationship with God (however it may unfold). Rather than passively intellectualizing and rationalizing everything away. Close minded people probably won't move into this kind of action (like I have suggested) but people who have even a slightly open mind might. The true reason I am under such heavy assault by some people on this sight is that: "A human with an experience is never at the mercy of a human with a mere argument." This makes the intellectual superiors (who want to pride fully be right about everything) very unhappy because they can't completely dash an experience to pieces. Yes, they call me delusional, naive, (and a host of other derogatory words I won't write here at the moment) and tell me I need professional help etc, but they can not prove this to be true. The opposite may very well be true.
Markm, I had never considered the word as derogatory but a factual description. From Webster: to induce someone to convert to one's faith . So these detailed instructions and directions are somehow not intended to induce someone to convert to your faith?
Proslytizing... From a Biblical perspective (which also seems to agree with general understanding of the word) Proselytizing carries with it the implication of manipulation (or forcing). The ancient Biblical Hebrew word for manipulation (forcing - taking away peoples freedom) is the same word as witchcraft (it is of the highest "no-no's in the Biblical faith"). In the Biblical sense God respects peoples' will and freedom absolutely. The goal is SHARING, not manipulating or forcing. The mission of Christianity is to share the message of invitation with others. Jesus’ words were "Preach the Gospel to all nations" - Which (if you study the original language of the text) means: "COMMUNICATE THE GREAT NEWS". He does not say "try to get them to believe." As a matter of fact he was clear about respecting people’s decisions and freedom. Hopefully this helps you to understand the derogatory implication of the word Proselytizing. Of course, many misled people have been adamant about Proselytizing throughout history. As a side note: Chris has mentioned Hell quite a few times as something non believers (in Christianity) are threatened with if they do not choose to believe in and follow all the "rules" of the faith. Actually, "hell" is an English word that does not exist in the original language of the Bible. The concept of hell is not a clear cut concept in the Bible itself. Yes, many have (regrettably) used this word as a form of manipulation - but (according to the Bible itself) Jesus never did nor ever taught people to. Chris is not fully educated in Biblical studies. It seems his Biblical knowledge has mostly come from bitter skeptics that base their teaching on faulty presuppositions.
So where do all the bad people go? Someone asked, so this is what I beleive the bible says....as well I can put it. Bad people, prositutes or drunkards ect.... are sinners, yes..but sin is unbelief, not smoking, or drinking....these you do because of unbeleif. They can be saved if they will repent..... Really bad people...........evil, have heard the word of God, and rejected it. "The word "sin" means "unbelief, this group see's it and still doesn't change their mind. Untill the law there was no sin imputed, the same is true here. They have it revealed to them .....in some way God has shown them He is real...but they refuse to repent..(that means to do the other thing) then they are marked. If they don't repent, nothing left but judgement. Just like Satan as an angel was in the presense of God and knew the truth....then turned away anyhow. Hell, was created for the devil and his angels, the scriptures state....but has enlarged it's mouth to accomodate the ones who turn away. Torment for a very long period of time, but then mercifully done away with......That is every single atom, spirit , soul everything completly analiated.....the word used here means "to the vanishing point"... God is merciful, even to His enemies. But others who've never heard the truth....I don't mean some sloppy, half creed, half pagan idolism they try to pass for christianity today...but the Word, they will be given the chance, there is going to be a resurection and they will get a chance to hear or reject in a life to come.
Reply to snakelord Please don't box me up with the other Christians on this sight (not that you do). My answers will most likely be different.
Markm, LOL. Keep practicing that religious propaganda and you’ll get it right one day perhaps. We have had countless in depth debates here about ‘hell’ and all its various interpretations and how it is portrayed in the bible. Are you sure you want to test my knowedge? So having failed to convince anyone that your anecdotes have any truth you now appear to want to ridicule me. Revenge perhaps? That isn’t very Christian. Bitter skeptics? Why do you think skeptics are bitter? Does it make you feel more comfortable to think of them that way? To be skeptical is a very healthy approach to life. The opposite of course is to be gullible. If your claims had any real value and truth then skeptics would never be a problem. Your claims involve the alleged most powerful being in the universe yet he seems so weak that he cannot withstand simple questions from those who have learnt to think beyond the superficial level of primitive superstitions.
Hmmmmm lemme get this all into perspective.. Those who smoked and didn't believe in god even though they had proof that, according to you Visitor nobody can understand cause its coded and only you have the key.... will all suffer extreme torment but then be evaporated and forgotten about? Ok, im with ya so far.. Everyone else including the silly little people that dare call themselves christians will be ressurrected and given the chance to subscribe or die? So why the fuck would they have to care about it right now? Personally i'd start thinking about it once i'd been ressurrected, and take whatever seemed the wisest choice at the time. You of course are granted exclusive access to heaven 'cause you're the only one smart enough to have the secret key to the word of god. Cool man, i envy you-- umm is envy a sin? Fuck, bugger, ball bags im gonna get evaporated now :bugeye: To MarkM: Dont you worry. I'm a great believer in individual ability. I believe entirely in human worth and self value instead of pointing it all at one supreme being so trust me when i say i will treat you independantly and as a unique being. Ah so just the ALL bad people get fuxx0red, (sorry Ultima Online term)? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! If then, considering we're all bad in a way, will we all receive the same forgiveness eventually? If we do all receive the same forgiveness for our sins i feel it lowers the need for God as a mortal. Surely, knowing we're all going to be forgiven, it's irrelevant what i do right now as long as i have some form of good in me? Im just curious and intent on learning so don't take my questions in the wrong light.
Sin and how it is defined in the bible, and Christian mythology on where all the bad people go. A deliberate act against the law of God. See 1 John 3:4. (The King James Version uses the word “transgression,” but the Greek word means “lawlessness,” which is deliberately choosing to live a life of sin.) A mental consent to a temptation or a sinful desire, the sin of coveting. See Rom. 7:7,8. (See also Matt. 5:27,28; James 1:14; Prov. 24:9.) Unbelief, a deliberate rejection of a Biblical truth. See Rom. 14:23. (See also John 3:18; John 16:8,9.) Neglect of known duties or opportunity. See James 4:17. (See also James 2:14; Matt. 23:23; Matt. 25:43-46.) Doing the wrong thing out of ignorance. See Lev. 5:17-19. (See also Luke 12:48; 1 Tim. 1:13.) Our sinful natures, which we inherited from Adam. See Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3. (See also Rom. 5:19,20; Eph. 2:3b; Phil. 3:20,21.) A law, principle, or constant force, dwelling in our sinful natures (indwelling sin in the flesh). This makes us slaves to sin. Therefore, holy living, in and of ourselves, is impossible. See Rom. 7:14, 20-23. (See also Luke 11:39; John 8:31-34.) The sinful nature of man, which was begun by Adam, cannot be removed except by Jesus. And one cannot be with God if one is sinful. Hence the only way to God and life is through Jesus. If you do not accept Jesus then you will always be bad and can never be with God. Your fate is death, sometimes called hell, or the grave. And here we mean spiritual death.
Snakelord and Chris Snakelord, Please read your private messages. I don't want to post everything for all to see, especially if you are sincere in your questioning. Thanks. Chris, I am sorry for lashing out at you on my last posting. I had a real bad day today. Yes, it was not "Christian”, hopefully you will extend grace to me. I am not Mr. Perfect, believe me. That is why I appreciate Grace so much.
Mark, There is a guideline in this forum that we don't always follow and I have been guilty sometimes of breaking it. The idea is that it is OK to attack an argument as fiercely as you wish but it is not acceptable to attack the person. I.e. ad hominem attacks are not good news. The trouble comes when someone connects the argument very closely with a personal issue, it is then difficult to seperate the two. I'll do my best to stop teasing and taunting you. True humility is one of the most powerful mental disciplines a person can achieve. The unwise will see it as weakness. The wise just simply understand. Take care Cris
Reply to Chris [quote from Chris] I'll do my best to stop teasing and taunting you. Thank you. I will do the same. On some days it does not affect me, but on other days it does (I am human). My goal here is not to be arrogant, or to make people angry; but to share legitimate religious experiences, so that people can make up their own minds.
Sorry about the delay in responding to your post. Business and vacation kept me away. SnakeLord wrote Wrong. Because according to your logic, ‘If I can’t disprove aliens exist, it doesn’t instantly make it a fact.’ Again you have to re-think your statements you make, otherwise you are arguing in a circular manner. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! SnakeLord wrote Not according to Professor Thomas Arnold, 14 years a headmaster of Rugby, author of the famous, “History of Rome”, and appointed to the chair of modern history at Oxford. He was well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts, and said, "I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God [has] given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead." And an English scholar, Brooke Foss Westcott, also added, “Raking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ.” (Your statement above implies you want to disregard or deny history, i.e., anything you have not seen is under suspicion and cannot be proven. Therefore, according to your logic, anything you did not witness did not happen or can’t be proven. The implication of that logic would encompass historical events before your birth, including the bombing of Pearl Harbor by the Japanese, the signing of the Magna Carta, the War of 1812, Christopher Columbus’s discovery of the new world, the Black Plague, and the Gallic Wars by Julius Caesar. You should reconsider the statement because that logic is also full of holes.) SnakeLord wrote But none, under close scrutiny, are considered to be justifiable explanations for the empty tomb and the martyrdom of the first Christians other than Jesus rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples in flesh and blood. SnakeLord wrote Not according to Sir Lionel Luckhoo, whose 245 consecutive murder trial victories earned him a place in The Guinness Book of World Records as the world’s most successful lawyer. He viewed the 'evidence' and concluded that “the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.” SnakeLord wrote Let me try to explain it in simpler terms. The historical part of the resurrection (which the evidence has stood up under close scrutiny in a court of law) is that Jesus died on the cross, was buried, and rose on the third day. He appeared to his disciples, five hundred other eyewitnesses, and Saul of Tarsus (a persecutor of the early Christians). The faith part begins when I understand the reason why he died on the cross (for the sins of the world according to Isaiah 53, John 3:16, Romans 3:24, Romans 10:9,10, Acts 2:14-36, 1Corinthians 15: 3-9). Therefore, the resurrection of Jesus is the cornerstone of the Christian faith for those who understand the reasons why it happened and have accepted it. SnakeLord wrote Could you please quote the reference for your example stated above? (And are you sure this really happened? Remember, you weren’t there to witness these people dying during World War II.) SnakeLord wrote Actually it fits very well within the context of your arguments. SnakeLord wrote Your response above reminds me of a Monty Python skit called ‘The Argument Department’. Should I reply with “No they don’t” in order keep this segment of the argument going? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! SnakeLord wrote Yet you weren’t there to witness the events written within it, so how do you know if it is true? SnakeLord wrote So the challenge to look at the “evidence surrounding” the resurrection has been countered by a challenge to disprove the existence of alien beings (presumably intelligent life from another planet). I accept the challenge only if you accept the challenge to look at the “evidence surrounding” the resurrection. Agreed?
Well..... according to your logic it is fact unless shown otherwise. I look upon things like this: If we have no proof we need that proof before any of us can be satisfied. We are in no position to just accept something at face value. We can talk about gravity and apples all day but they're completely different scenarios and i consider doing such as a mere waste of real time. If you can't see the difference regarding gravity as fact and god as fact then there's little point in continuing. As for aliens.... You agree with me there is no proof to suggest they dont exist and there's plenty of evidence to suggest they do? If so, wouldn't it be better to look at that evidence and study it instead of just denying it. Even if there were aliens it hardly shows jesus or god as non existant so would it matter if you spent time studying it? I like to search for answers by looking at the evidence we have. As such i consider the possibility that every other god people believe in may be true. Do you consider the other gods and study them aswell as your own belief? My lack of concentration solely for one belief means i can look at all of them without bias. Professor Thomas Arnold is irrelevant. Is he ultimately correct because he can theorize? If your arguments are grounded solely on the sayings of Mr Arnold fair enough, but that in no way constitutes proof to anything. Ok, big deal... he was a headmaster for 14 years.. what's that got to do with anything? Nothing really. Apparently, according to you, he said: "...than the great sign which God [has] given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead." He sounds like a religious guy.. which pretty much removes any true reliability thanks to probable bias. There are a million scientists turned religious, and a million religious turned scientific people. Not any one of them is proof of anything regardless to how many certificates of 'i learnt this subject well' they have. I'm pretty sure you can tell the difference in our topic vs Pearl Harbor. If not ........... As for the Gallic wars by Julius Ceasar i wont comment. I wasn't there. I do get your point but let's stay on the same pattern of chat.....so.... The viking belief in Valhalla- Odin etc. The Sumerian belief in Mortal space travelling 'gods'. The Iliad, the Odyssey. the story of the wooden horse, Ulysses etc... This is along the lines we speak. Whether or not someone dropped a bomb on Hiroshima, whether Kennedy was assassinated etc are irrelevant topics here. Would you concur that Odin was/is real, the Sumerian Gods, (Anunnaki), were factual etc? Tomb raiders..... As for Jesus rising from the dead and appearing to his disciples in flesh and blood..... Don't get me wrong i agree with you 100%. Jesus did rise from the dead. Where does that mean it's because of God? Personally i'd say he was an alien with the ability to ressurrect as shown 1,500 years earlier in the Sumerian scriptures. Now you perhaps see how easy it is to interpret a story? I believe you entirely that Jesus rose from the dead, however it doesn't neccesarily equal that which you believe. Thus whether he rose from the dead or not is still hardly adequate proof of your claims to god. As it isn't undeniable proof i just cant throw all my eggs into that one basket. Once again Sumerian scripture shows many occasions of dead beings ressurrecting. In the bible theres a part about 'crying for Damuzi', (Tammuz). That's from Sumerian writing where they were crying for the Sumerian God Damuzi who died and couldn't be ressurrected. It's strange knowing a Jewish calender month is named after a Sumerian God. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! However aside from the bad luck Damuzi suffered there are many cases of Gods who could ressurrect from death. Does that instantly mean the Sumerian Gods are real just as your is cause Jesus rose from the dead too? Ok cause your buddy lionel luckhoo was a good lawyer god is instant fact? Wow omg the guy got in the guiness book of records??? Well how can anyone doubt him? His look at evidence is as worthless as anyones. It's all about interpretations. Like i said- i do not doubt the ressurrection of jesus, that doesn't mean it has anything to do with god, heaven, being good to one another or anything else along those lines. This is now the second time you have been as petty to assume truth in the hands of two people. One can claim being a headmaster the other can claim he's in the GBOR. And? I fail to see the relevance. There's a guy in the guiness book of records who ate more beef and onion pies in one day than any other man on the planet. Doesn't mean i'd believe him if he told me green three footed monkeys existed. What would you expect as disproof? If a guy found some 2000 year old text that said: "Jesus did not res, it was a magic trick" would you instantly consider that undeniable fact against his ressurrection? yes or no? Please answer. If you say no then how can you consider a 2000 year old text that says he did as undeniable proof? If you say yes then you obviously just accept everything at face value. In your line of understanding the courts would just accept it as proof against. Ok, like i said.... sure whatever.... he did rise from the dead- it's hardly a miracle if you read Sumerian texts. Exactly my point. Faith..... He could have risen from the dead as part of alien powers. You rely on mere faith to assume otherwise. As such we do NOT have any facts and cannot regard it as so until we see that proof. Thank you for completely stating my argument. Accepted..... I don't just 'accept'. I need the actual facts. That's where we differ. If i rot in hell for it, so be it, but i cannot just buy something whole heartedly unless it is absolute fact. Go back and read it.. I didn't state anything, i asked a question. I said: "How many people...". I didn't make a statement cause i wasnt there to know exactly how many people. It was merely to point out you cant say nobody would because you dont know everybody. Understand? You said to deny history is foolishness.... My answer to that is to just, (in your own words), 'accept' something on faith is stupid. You may be wrong, you may very well be right.... That's exactly why i don't just 'accept it'. It's nothing more than one big 'might or might not'. Do as you please...... If sir leonard Nimoy, or whatever his name is, allows you. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I don't. Thanks for making my point again. You don't, i don't, sir lennie 'i got a blue peter badge' doesn't know either. We study and search we don't just 'accept'. Well whatever..... like i said- i agree jesus ressed from the dead. But for the sake of mutual challenge you now show me the evidence to support the ressurrection of jesus- all and any evidence you have. I will show you evidence to support alien existence, (intelligent life- seeing as alien life of the not so intelligent variety has been found). Agreed? Well..... let's state you probably know more of jesus ressurrection than i do, and i probably, (after 17 years study, and one personal sighting), know more about alien life than you do. (Of course that's just an assumption but it will probably turn out better that way). BTW........ Welcome back Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Snakelord- I'l like to hear about the personal sighting you had. I would find it interesting. This is not sarcasm by the way. This is a genuine fascination to hear your story.
You probably dont want to hear it, it does sound uniquely bizarre Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I was sitting in the warmth of the summer sun, (im a guy who loves the outdoors. I never feel more comfortable than i do when out in the open- fields glowing with buttercups, trees swaying to some unheard ryhthmic ballad). I heard a noise.. So hard to explain but like a very faint pig grunting. I turned my head round and saw an animal similar to a frog with funny horns. It looked at me.... I reached out to grab my camera, (im an amateur photographer), and the animal screamed like what you'd expect from a horror movie. It whizzed off like Linford Christie on speed. I have never seen anything move so fast. I went back to that place many many times after. Strange mushrooms grew all over the place. I ended up checking many horticultural websites to find these mushrooms but never did. I still have photographs of these mushrooms which have been analysed and labelled as 'unknown'. About two years after i went back and stumble upon some skeletal remains within close vicinity of the mushrooms. I sent the remains to Mrs. Deborah Hills who is without doubt considered the foremost mammologist in the country, (she was the person who stuided the supposed remains of the beast of bodmin). The letter and photos she sent me back kins of dissapointed me: Unknown creature. I never got the remains back and had strange people follow me in a van for about a month until, like a madman, i confronted them in a pub. They left and i have never seen them since. We have several options open to us here: New species living in the rural heart of london Alien species Etc....... This is exactly the same scenario as God but my own story holds more weight. Nothing of this nature is actual fact, nothing is absolute an undeniable proof. I had bones, i had pictures, i had sighting. I still regard it as nothing more than mere 'suggestion' of a possibility. People are so quick to jump to a belief and dont question it in unbiased manner. I love the thought of alien life but still regard this as nothing more than a possibility. Can anyone else do any more than that? I often hear people talk of what they feel in their hearts, what they hear in their minds... None of these count as fact no matter what we want to believe. I concur that anything is possible- god, aliens, santa claus. I do not throw my eggs in one basket, i do not subscribe to something without absolute 100% fact to the matter. I am in all reference nothing more than a 'non-knowerist'. I do not purport to know the answers. I do not hold myself in such regard to have undeniable facts. Maybe one day i will- who's to say- but until that time take everything with a grain of salt. I will still question and ask and seek- if i do not do that i can hardly regard myself as an open minded human being. Regards, Steve.
Snakelord- I enjoyed that story, found it very interesting to say the least. Your following comments also impressed me and lead me to believe that you told a reliable account of what actually happened.
Thnx. But that was really just the basics of it. Thing is i stared at this creature for what seemed like days but was probably nothing more than a nano-second. I did have all the story and pictures etc up on my website once upon a time... I'll put it all up again at some stage.
A FIRST-HAND RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE (a life saved) In Downtown Portland Oregon (August of 1994) during "The Bite" (a food oriented festival) my wife and I were walking along (at 11:00pm) and suddenly out of nowhere, the Lord said to me "Take a right." I am not sure why I obeyed, but I instantly took a sharp 90 degrees and walked away from my wife into a pitch dark parking lot. Then as I was about 100 feet away from my wife and in darkness (not knowing what the heck I was doing), The Lord said to me "Take another right". I obeyed again and turned another sharp 90 degrees. At that moment I kept hearing the Lord repeat this phrase over and over: "You are about to see something, you are about to see something..." At this point I started to fear considerably because I had never had an experience like this (was not sure what was happening) and I had no idea what was going to happen (was it going to take my life?). I started saying to God under my breath "Lord, help me, Lord, please protect me; Lord, help me, please protect me...” over and over. I slowly walked another 40-50 feet (while praying that prayer) and as I was coming straight up on the back of a mini-van, suddenly, a teenage girl came flying out of the passenger side door COMPLETELY NAKED and SCREAMING "HELP ME-HE IS TRYING TO KILL ME!!!" The girl was in the middle of being raped by knife-point and at the exact moment I came up on the van the rapist had the knife to her throat and was just about to finish the job! (according to her testimony) She said that the rapist had jammed his hand down her throat and was just putting the knife to her throat! We grabbed her and quickly helped her get away to our car nearby, got her clothed, and brought her back to her friends’ hangout downtown (at a dance club). We also found some police on the street and got them involved. As we were driving the girl back to her friends (she was obviously traumatized) she told us that while the rapist had her in his van, she kept praying that GOD WOULD SAVE HER! She never did press charges, and we never saw her again, but we did follow up with the police department that night and following days. They told us we may be needed as witnesses, but that many women who get raped do not ever go to court against their attacker because of fear. She never did. Some will refuse to believe this story, and in their minds reduce me to a religious, delusional, nutcase who needs professional help. That is ok by me. The story is not intended for absolutely shut minds. The truth is that the sheer mathematical odds of this happening as it did are staggering (at least to me they are). When I have troubles with my faith (my wife and I recently went through the tragedy of loosing a baby- so you can imagine that I do) I remember my experiences with God like the ones I have posted on this forum sight, and this one, and I am simply not ABLE to justify them away. Even if I wanted to, I cannot.
