What is the enemy?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Kittamaru, Dec 16, 2017.

  1. Kittamaru Never cruel nor cowardly... Staff Member

    What is the true enemy of good people everywhere?

    To me, it would be fear and the illogical responses it creates. It allows us as a species to be divided and for those who would manipulate us to turn us against one another, ignoring the threats on our doorstep. As we have seen time and time again, some groups exploit this continuously in order to solidify their grasp on power... Power that they really do not deserve.
    river likes this.
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    The very concept of "us and them" of the evil enemy and the righteous us, of tribalism, is instinctive. Slowly over the millennia we have been trying to civilize our way out of that framing. But certainly today the rich and powerful use issues of race and sex to divert attention away from their pillaging of the poor... shit there is that framing again. Ok: people use divisive issues to divert attention from important issues for which they are ultimately the cause and solution.
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  5. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    A crappy living environment. I mean, growing up without internet just creates savages.
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  7. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Corruption is the enemy. It means that your government isn't operating with your best interests at heart. It's not "us vs them" regarding differing views among the citizenry. It's corruption of the "representatives".
  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

    Corruption is universal, if there is power to accumulate then there will be corruption. A world without government will simply hand power over to warlords and "strong men", I rather have a corrupt government instead.
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    I wonder if it is possible - even in principle - to eradicate or limit corruption.

    The voting system is not set up to have honest politicians get into office.
    They must make promises they cannot keep, or a worse politician will get voted in.
    They must do backroom deals, just to get important things done.
    It's no use saying 'I don't do back room deals' if the people you depend on say 'well I do, and the guy next to you does.'

    And, when governing hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people, a large fraction of them will not get what they want or think they deserve.
    I wonder how many citizens say 'well, I didn't get what I want, but that's understandable. Statistically, I should not expect to get what I want more than a certain fraction of times. That doesn't make my representative corrupt.'

    It's easy to say corruption is bad and corrupt people are bad, but I would be interested in hearing about a governing system that can operate without them.
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    I'd say the enemy is tribalism.

    Once, our dozen or so members were good guys, and we all profited or lost together, with everyone else as the competitor for resources.
    Now, our tribe might be a few hundred or a few thousand - those in our personal special interest group.
    But I don't see how our tribe can encompass the whole world - unless it involved a global - external - threat to unite us.
    I think we will always have this problem as long as there is a 'we' and a 'they'.
  11. sweetpea Registered Senior Member

    Is that like... ''We'' as in my family and ''they'' as in some other family? To keep my family fed and safe what would I do? Bad things?
  12. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Ignorance perhaps.
    river and Seattle like this.
  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    I suggest to folk that if big political news is filling your head to consider what real news is your attention being diverted from.

    Over here there was an extraordinary report on tax rip off by big mult national companies which was scandalous, since then we get endless babbling about politicians who hold duel citizenship seats being lost and also the pending and now passed same sex marriage legislation.
    Duel citizenship and same sex marriage are important but really a high ranking public servant could deal with such matters.
    And so the tax evasion report seems not to be placed in the " in basket " anytime soon.

  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    A certain amount of dealing, inducement, corruption even, is unavoidable and probably necessary.
    Like friction or dimension tolerance in a machine. No friction, it falls apart; parts fit too tight, it jams.

    Too much self-dealing, and government breaks down.
    As with a machine: too much friction, it jams; parts fit too loose, it breaks.

    In my old town, when the county or city had important events - parades, Fourth of July fireworks, anything involving an outdoor sound system - they always let bids, because of the law, and they always hired the same firm regardless of the bids. And they got a clean working system, in on time for rehearsals and out with no hassles - no feedback problems, no gear problems, no safety worries, no inaudible or undecipherable speeches, no bullshit about the bill or what was and was not specified and paid for, and generally for mid-range money - sometimes low, sometimes high. They knew the guy, the guy knew the job.

    There is no way to eliminate corruption completely without eliminating the autonomy and decision-making power of government agents and officials. And there's no way to govern without allowing that - encouraging it and depending on it, even.

    Now generally the right level of corruption is less than exists. But adopting measures to reduce it chosen by the criterion of eliminating it entirely dooms, one way or another.

    Corruption is an enemy. There are others.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  15. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    "We" and "they" vary, depending on who you see as your tribe.
    I am considering
    your tribe as "those who, if they do better, you also do better",
    as opposed to "everyone else, who, if they do better, it's at best, neutral for you, but in principle, at your expense."

    When our tribe is "Earth", then we will all feel that we stand or fall as one big tribe.
  16. river

    As Pink Floyd said and warned us about : Welcome to the Machine .

    The Machine is about divide and concur . Ignorance . Not only by the masses , but to those who are more educated . Education does not lead to intellect . Education is about being " smart " , practical , not necessarily , intelligent , as in Newton .

    Religion is the true enemy . It will be the down fall of Humanity . Religion is part of the Machine .

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