What is up with the moderator vendetta against Gustav?

Discussion in 'Site Feedback' started by quadraphonics, Oct 19, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. RealityCheck Banned Banned

    Messages:
    800

    I humbly submit that this newfound 'tolerance' may be the result of all the recent constructive efforts on the part of some to bring the mod-troll tactic/problem out into open forum scrutiny? During which recent constructive efforts some HAVE BEEN banned for speaking up constructively for fair play. lol.

    And it wasn't immediate ban one had to fear; it was subsequent 'payback' via mod-troll baiting, personal disparagement, thread/discussion sabotage/spoiling etc etc until the 'target for payback' was goaded into 'infraction' so that the mod-troll combo could 'apply the rules' in their double-standard expedient way and THEN ban the target. Sometimes they weren't even that subtle, and actually gloated in open forum about what they did! Ego and power and lack of real accountability according to mutual standards makes some people abusers of the system and they don't even realize they are doing anything wrong. That is what the problem has been. The banning is a mere 'delayed symptom' of that 'disease' which eats away at the integrity and credibility of 'authority' wherever that disease goes unrecognized and untreated. Prevention is better than cure. Change the site's modus operandi so that all contentious issues are fully aired in OPEN forum and only after exhaustive to-and-fro should the members make an informed decision to support/object-to banning someone on either 'side' of the issue.

    It would NOW be foolhardy for a mod-troll to engage in the old ways of personal agendas 'business as usual', wouldn't it? The troll-mod combos may be malicious and egotistical, but they are not stupid. They can see that their future tactics/behaviour (which was in the past 'protected' by PM 'anonymity' and control of 'due process' and double-standard application of 'the rules') will be held directly/more accountable immediately in open forum (as it should always have been so that we could have avoided all this distraction from what the site should be about).

    To discourage bad discussions does not justify ruining good discussions. There is a way to discern and discuss which is bad and why....and ONLY after giving the subject a chance to explain/justify/retract IN OPEN FORUM, for all to see that no double standards etc etc are applied, should a member be banned. No back room machinations and power plays and subtle (and sometimes unsubtle!) intimidatory tactics/intrusions etc. Just common courtesy and fair play and right of reply/defense/retraction as appropriate form EITHER 'side' on the issue.

    Being heavy handed and unfair and controlling the 'process' to the members' disadvantage is no way to garner respect for the rules, process and mods. That way lay frustration and continuing conflict which a smidgin of good faith and common sense and fair play would minimize such that admin/mod/members can get on with what we should all be here for: community, science, humanity and open discourse of all these things from diverse/new perspectives.


    Billvon, by your last comment there, you have given me cause to hope that the heretofore 'ban at will' threat for personal tactics/grudges is now a thing of the past! Good luck to you and this site. Cheers!
     
  2. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    It may be good to notice that ANYONE who is currently banned is NOW permabanned. All temp bans have been converted to permabans. We can assume they are cleaning house and doing whatever they can to get rid of the ones they dislike. If you have stood up against the mods for anything recently, consider your days on this site numbered, they have you marked and will have you bannned. Neverfly was temp banned a few days ago, for a week and had no infraction points, Now while he is still on ban, Trippy goes in and permabans him. Sneaky if you ask me. You know NMSquirrel created a forum. Why don't all us interesting people migrate there. He calls it the squirrels nest and it is on proboards. I can't put in the link because that would be spamming. But you all know how to use google. He uses the same id on his forum as he does here. They ban all the people that keep threads going. This forum will die. It will become boring and no one will want to bother with it. They will get fewer hits and it will produce less income. Talk about poor business decisions.

    I currently have no infraction points and have NEVER been given an infraction point. I doubt that will prevent me from being banned.
     
  4. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,479
    I find Hanlon's Razor to be almost universally true:

    "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

    In other words, simple negligence almost always wins out over malice. There are a few exceptions which I discuss below.

    Agreed there!

    I agree those are the best paths to pursue. However, it does not work for a small subset of posters, which are the exception to Hanlon's Razor I noted above.. There are people out there whose only goal is to be disruptive, to gum up the works as much as possible, to get people talking about them as much as possible. In online gaming they are known as griefers:

    =============
    A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways. A griefer derives pleasure primarily or exclusively from the act of annoying other users, and as such is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities, since griefers often cannot be deterred by penalties related to in-game goals.
    ==============

    Such posters use every opportunity given them to try to divide the community, annoy the people on the forum, and garner recognition. They are often proud of their "most bannings" status or whatever, and learn quickly how far they can push the limits - then they push them every chance they get. They revel when open threads discuss them, and use those threads to bait and threaten people while keeping _just_ on the side of the line that will keep them from getting banned.

    Note that I am NOT saying that Gustav or anyone else here is such a poster. But I have moderated other boards and they definitely exist. Often you just have to ban them permanently and end all the discussion.

    Fortunately most people are not like that, which is why your suggestion _usually_ works.

    (There's another aspect to the "chance to retract in an open forum" thing, and that's privacy. Many boards have policies where they do not discuss actions taken against other posters, so that posters don't have to live with "you've been banned three times, you troll, so shut up" type of posts.)
     
  6. Guest Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. RealityCheck Banned Banned

    Messages:
    800
    All that you say about general behavioural traits of 'spoilers' applies equally well to some on both 'sides' of the problem here; as highlighted via my Mars Rover experiment. I agree that most here want to just get on with science etc discourse. But some 'on both sides' of the behavioural conflicts insist on personalizing when it suits. Again, that is a tactic both 'sides' have used, ordinary members and mods-troll combos alike.

    The time has come, and I see you recognize this too, that we are now 'maturing' as a site for open science etc discourse. No longer are the usual 'internet characters/tactics' a valid or desirable component on sites such as this. It may be ok for the twitter class types of social-gathering-only types, but not for serious minded people who wish to discuss openly all sorts of scientific/political/social issues IN DEPTH and not in a kneejerking and 'authoritarian-controlled' way.

    And all that 'privacy' invoking as an excuse to HIDE the mod-troll methods stacked against the targeted member does not wash any longer. Anyhow, such language (from the mods doing the banning) you suggest would be 'disclosed' only makes my point further. Such language should NOT be part and parcel of the mod discussion with members in any area, open or behind PM. It is the fact that such language is encouraged when things are NOT in the open that adds fuel to the frustration/fire. If all were constrained to civility and just addressing the issues without insults and double standards and power-ascendancy as a threat/intimidatory tool for getting compliance even when the mod is wrong, then we could all see better the pros and cons in any one issue which may arise where one side or the other feels aggrieved.

    Open process. Open discourse. Open justification for serious actions/comments form either 'side'. That is the only way it will avoid the constant confrontation building up from repeated instances which add up to patterns of behaviour which are at odds with the site and its purported raison detre.

    Anyhow, I have spent more time than I really could spare for this discussion/issue. The only thing I get out of it is that I know I did it for the greater good of science and humanity. All else is distraction and I have even less time for that sort of personal stuff. I am glad that something good has come out of this. You and I agree on many things about this issue, if not on all the finer details!

    No more time. Good luck to the site and its members! Bye!
     
  8. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    Truth be told, if the moderation or administration staff simply wanted to "clean house", there are much simpler ways to do that. Especially given the issues the current forum software is having. One such example I can think of would be to e-mail all the members that would be wanted to be kept and simply migrate to a new provider on a new address.

    This really isn't some grand conspiracy or scheme to get rid of people... however, things are being run a little tighter and rules that have been laid by the wayside hoping for someone to enforce them have been brought back to be given their due.
     
  9. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    But only enforced against members, not mods. They will never be held accountable.
     
  10. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    When violations are committed they are not usually committed in private. So the reprimand for that crime should also not be done in private. If all the official mod activities concerning member behavior were done in the open then we, the members on the sidelines, could see for ourselves if a particular member truly had it coming. But when we see no action taken against mods who do the same exact things they ban other members for and do not get to see the litigation process that led to the banning we can only assume that there is corruption taking place. As I said before, a little transparency can hold the mods accountable as well as redeem them in some cases. If they aren't doing anything wrong, why not do it all in the open. Any offense that is committed publicly should be dealt with publicly. By making posts on the public forums we wave our rights to privacy in such matters. 4 people have been perma-banned in the last couple of days... does anyone know exactly why?

    The only message moderators are sending out is that we must submit to their will and live under their foot (intellectually speaking) or leave.
     
  11. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    This is the key. No disrespect, but I don't think anyone is shedding a tear that Neverfly was permabanned, particularly after he physically threatened another member. Empty or not, e-thuggery is the lowest form of discourse possible, and I'd rather not deal with anyone capable of such childish behavior. However, there have been legitimate complaints made against moderators to no avail. But because James R is such a bad administrator, we're never going to see mods held accountable.

    Until something changes at the top, we're all either going to have to get used to the fact that Bells can call you names without fear of reprimand, that Tiassa can officially insult you, that Trippy can call you a troll and infract you while being guilty of all the same things he says you are--or go find a new forum.
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    In late response to RealityCheck's post - I have to wonder - if we mods really wanted to just get rid of people... what's stopping us? I mean... what would be the worst that could happen if we just perma-banned everyone we didn't like? Worst case, we would get demoted and/or removed from the forums by the administration... but in terms of real-life consequences... none what so ever. Really. So, yeah, that theory doesn't really make sense either mate.
     
  13. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
  14. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
  15. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    Do you really see FG's post as being no different than Gustav's telling someone to go off themselves?

    Dominic's is closer to the line, though. I'm sure I saw someone banned recently for the promotion of violence against the Taliban because "the Taliban are people, too" according to our leader, James R. Telling "evil people" in general to kill themselves is more generic, so I wonder where it actually lands.
     
  16. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    People have very different ideas on what constitutes "more rancorous or abusive discussions".
     
  17. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    Freaking mod queue.

    Do you really see Fraggle's post as being the same as Gustav's? Really? C'mon, SG. There is a difference between advocating the legitimacy of assisted suicide and telling someone to "off themselves."

    Dominic's is closer to the line. I recently saw a poster banned for advocating violence against the Taliban (no, seriously), but this seems a little more generic. Still, it will be interesting to see what happens.
     
  18. Balerion Banned Banned

    Messages:
    8,596
    Third time trying to reply here. The mod queue needs to go away.

    Do you really not see a difference between Gus and Fraggle's posts? Really? C'mon, SG. There's a difference between advocating for assisted suicide and telling someone to off themselves.

    Dominic's comments are closer to the line. I saw another poster banned for advocating violence against the Taliban (no, really) but these comments are much more generic. Still, it will be interesting to see.
     
  19. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    I see a difference sure. But I'm willing to bet if it suits them, and it were a non mod promoting assisted suicide, specifically a member they don't like, such as myself, They would jump on the chance to ban. But we will see if dominic survives this. I'm just testing their claims that's all.



    The hypocrisy you mention in regards to violence against the taliban is a very good point. Considering Bells, defends her assertion that she would kill a child rapist if it were her child that he hurt. She claims she doesn't advocate her presumed course of action, however she goes on to defend her position by stating reasons suggesting the legal system cannot be trusted to punish rapists effectively. Imagine if a grieving parent was reading her posts and found validation for his desires to kill, laid out all pretty like, and then went on to kill who he believed 100% was guilty of a heinous crime against his child. Oh the responsibility Sciforums must bear for the words of their moderators. If one cannot condone acts of violence against the likes of the taliban, how is it ok to condone acts of violence against a child rapist, a person who is likely to be mentally ill.
     
  20. seagypsy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,153
    This was a duplicate post--


    I seriously only hit "submit" once. I don't know why my post went through twice. It seems posts are either eaten by the queue or stuttered out repeatedly. how annoying. Too bad the mods can't just focus on making the site work right rather than enforcing double standards.
     
  21. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,938
    Admittedly, he is not directing his statement at a member or group of members of our boards... so while I still don't agree with what he said, he is not in breech of the site rules

    As for assisted suicide... again, it's not telling someone to "go jump down an elevator shaft" so really not a comparable event.
     
  22. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,058
    Does anyone notice the self-righteous smugness of those who walk around pointing fingers at people, claiming they are "evil," "psychopaths" and the like?
    And nobody sees a problem with such self-appointed judges?
     
  23. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,088
    This thread is making me want to be a mod now so I can ban people. I don't want to do all of that moderating crap, but banning could get fun. I'd start making a list if there were more hours in a day.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page