What is your problem with America?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by radicand, May 19, 2006.

  1. radicand Registered Senior Member

    1. Why do you find it necessary to constantly bash America, especially when a repub is in office? For some the bashing is consistent, so why? For others, it only happens when repubs are in office. And, yes there are some who bash when a dem is in office. Why?

    2. If you live in America, please state why you feel it appropriate to accept the services or freedoms enjoyed and then bash the hand that feeds you? And, no my position is not one of my country right or wrong. Nor, do I think it is as simple as invoking the right to free speech. In fact, if that is your only response. Please, do not participate.

    3. If you do not live in America, do you apply the same standards to your country that you do America?

    If I think of other questions, I will post them.

    Let it rip, I am sure some of the responses will be very entertaining!!!

    P. S. Yes, I understand that government is not the provider of freedom as question two seems to imply. I am merely saying that we are a country that holds freedom in high esteem.
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  3. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

    Who's bashing America? We're bashing the government. And the government sure as heck doesn't feed me. I can't think of one thing the government does, or has done, for me. It's the American people that support this country.

    Even then, nobody is bashing America. What's being done is when people make posts saying so-and-so is evil and pretends as if America is innocent, we point out the errors in their thinking. Stating truth isn't bashing unless you're one who gets offended by the truth and chooses to live a life in blissful ignorance.

    Not many don't hold freedom in high esteem.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    - N
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  5. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Well, I suppose some people support the rebublicans; others support the democrats. And they bash the other side when their policies are different from what they think they should be.

    As for general America-bashing, it is probably because America isn't the perfect place some people like to think it is.

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  7. LordRuryl Registered Member

    Freedom? in the US? lol... The US have lost freedom long ago, even before 9/11, because of FEAR. Its not just the goverment, it's also the media and the people that use the fear to pursue their aims.

    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

    "The great masses of the people... Will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one." - Adolph Hitler

    "Quite an experience, to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave." ~ replicant Roy Batty in Blade Runner
  8. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member


    i love america.... but i admit... it has been corrupted.... yet.. its not to late.

    we can bring her back to her former glory.

  9. Xeeg Registered Member

    1. Repubs generally have the reputation of favouring religious rightwing fundamentals. eg: Anti-Abortion, Anti-Homosexual. This is not nessesarily so, but is more common with hardcore republicans than other groups.
    As well, i agree to a certain extend that small government leads to a better functioning economy, but there are still many ways that the government must guide and assist the society through regulation and public services. Republicans seem to want small government (tax cuts, program cuts), but this can lead to the case where the richer just get richer and the poorer get poorer. Social programs are not created to enable people to just laze around and reap the benefits of society. The point is so that everyone has the same opportunity. I personally don't believe every human is the same, but whether you are born to a rich/poor family or neighborhood should not restrict your potential in society. This is what universal school systems and alot of public services are all about. Enabling people to have a chance.

    As for bashing USA, i'm living in Germany right now and (as a Canadian) am generally defending the american ideals to most people here. The main arguements are usually against the lack of social programs and big business vs common person. That being said, Germany currently has something of like an 8-10% unemployment rate, with the east germany sections enjoying up to 17% or so in some areas.
  10. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    Xeeg, it is amasing how your oppinion can change when when you spend a little time in another country and see what is really going on out side your comfort zone, you would be even more amased if you were in a third world country and saw what really is happening to the people in thoses countries.
  11. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

    I know what your saying Rad. I ask myself this question all the time. I think it has a big part to do with the war in Iraq. You can't blame people for being upset over that though. I think why American's are bashing America is because, one reason, they're ashamed over the war in Iraq.
  12. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

    No, I respectfully dissagree with you, what it really has to do with is loss of power, liberals power.
  13. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Partially, Buffalo, in that the loss of democratic power meant a loss of checks and balances and increased abuses of power.
  14. CounslerCoffee Registered Senior Member

    I love America and the freedoms that I enjoy, but recently those freedoms have come under attack in the form of wiretapping and secret prison camps.
  15. Brian Foley REFUSE - RESIST Valued Senior Member

    Whats Americas problem with the rest of the World ?
  16. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

    Lol, touche.

    - N
  17. radicand Registered Senior Member

    Sorry not buying it, my freedoms are attacked every day on a more personal level. First, wiretapping does not effect my privacy (phone company owns my number it is not my private number). Second, I have yet to know anyone that has been sent to a "secret prison camp." By the way the fact that that was reported by the media is a direct assault on national security, the people involved should be tried for treason.

    But more importantly, my freedom are attacked everyday in the following ways:

    Everyday I work to earn money, I do not keep all of it.

    Everyday I drive, I am told to buckle up and not speed.

    Everytime I gas up as if I have not paid enough in taxes, I pay twice the amount of the profits oil companies make per gallon that goes to the federal government.

    If a person breaks and enters my personal property with nefarious intent, I will be held accountable if I defend myself. Consider the allegator controversies in FLA. and that is a wild reptile not even a human being.

    Everyday I work, I have to be careful about what I say for a host of reasons: it could be taken as sexual harassment, verbal abuse, forcing my beliefs, and finally job threatening because of political beliefs.

    These things are far more threatening to my freedoms than a sensationalize claim of wiretapping and secret prison camps for terrorists, who are bent on ending the lives of my family and myself simply because I AM AMERICAN.
  18. radicand Registered Senior Member

    I wonder whether or not people would still be ashamed if the press reported objectively about Iraq?

    When I hear everyday about this or that atrocity committed by the US and, of course, authorized by the president. I guess that would have a tremendous impact on that particular sentiment.
  19. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Many of those alleged "terrorists" in secret camps have been let go. So much for your infantile assumptions.

    In modern times that means telephone calls.
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    Technically, if you have a mortgage, the bank owns your house, but somehow you still expect privacy there, why is that? You don't own a public restroom, yet you expect not to be filmed in there either, strange. You didn't build and don't own the road, yet you expect to be able to speed if you want to, how odd.

    The wiretapping is only what the government told us they are doing, therefore there is nothing "sensational" about it.

    I'd really like to know what your problem with America is. What is it about American values that make you abandon them at the first sign of trouble?
    Last edited: May 19, 2006
  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    "Love My Country, Fear My Government." That old bumper sticker pretty much sums me up.

    Except that it's about twenty years old. Since then the federal budget has increased by about 2,000 percent. It has marched into the Mideast twice under the guise of "settling conflicts" that are a thousand years older than our whole country and that we can't possibly begin to understand. It thinks it can seal a border that marks the greatest disparity in prosperity between any two adjacent nations on earth.

    There is nothing that this government does not think it can do. But worse, there is nothing that it does not think it has the right to do! And that's a big difference. With every passing year, the proportion of the government's actions that are in flagrant violation of the Constitution come closer to 100%.

    Listen people, it's this simple: The government only has the authority to do those things that are set forth in the Constitution. Everything else is specifically denied to it! The whole purpose of that is to prevent what is currently happening, which is a democracy turning into a majoritarian despotism with people who are unpopular and relatively few being run roughshod over by the government in the name of the majority.

    No matter how nice some of you, or even most of you, think it might be, the government does not have the legitimate authority to:

    Take money from rich people and give it to poor people.
    Choose who gets medical care, what kind, and who pays for it.
    Decide what our children should be taught.
    Prohibit people from using tobacco, alcohol, or any other drugs.
    Prevent women from obtaining abortions.
    Make up for thousands of years of racism and sexism by institutionalizing discrimination against white males.
    And on... and on...

    I love this country. I love its structure. The freedom. The democracy. All of which hinges on the limits on the power of government.

    We've got three branches. Checks and balances. If the President tries to do something unconstitutional, Congress blocks it. If Congress passes an unconstitutional law, the courts nullify it. If the courts make stupid decisions, the President appoints wiser judges.

    BUT IT'S NOT WORKING! The President does perfectly asinine things, Congress falls all over itself to support him, and the courts look the other way. IT'S NOT WORKING.

    The reason it's not working is that NOBODY GIVES A DAMN. For all three branches of government to fail at the same time, in collusion, is more than just an accident of history, more than subversion by the corporate sector, more than a coup by a religious movement. It is the manifestation of a people who just aren't paying attention. People who have gotten so used to the comforts of freedom that they've forgotten that it comes with an obligation.

    This isn't just the same-old same-old. No old-timer like me is going to pop up and dismiss these concerns by saying, "Oh pshaw, we went through the same crap back in my day and we muddled through okay." THIS HAS NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE. The reason is that THE GOVERNMENT HAS NEVER HAD THIS MUCH POWER BEFORE. Not even in wartime. Not even during the Cold War. NOT EVER! This is largely a manifestation of its sheer size and its share of the workforce and the GDP. But it's also a product of the frightening new kinds of technology that we all have at our disposal but should never be made available to a government.

    Every one of us, no matter how noble, does things that are illegal. That's always been true, although it's even more true today because there are more laws and they conflict with each other so that in order to obey one you have to violate another. Don't believe me? Ask your tax accountant about the Internal Revenue Code. Today, it's all on videotape and audiotape. Or more likely on digital media that can be searched much more efficiently.

    Everything about us, our entire identities, are now digitized. If the government decides it doesn't like me, it takes a few seconds to find evidence of laws I've broken, and a few seconds more to saturate the data infrastructure with curbs on my behavior and obstacles to living my life. Don't believe me? Ask the guy who lived at the same address as a convicted sex criminal, got on the wrong database "by accident," and was ostracized by an entire town. Ask the guy who has the same name, but different SSN, as a bank robber and carries a certified letter signed by a judge proclaiming that he is not the same person, yet everywhere he goes he gets his license number read, stopped by the cops, and detained for as long as 48 hours before the "mixup" is resolved.

    "The measure of our freedom is not how well we protect that which we love. It is how well we protect that which we despise."

    We're all too busy protecting the things we love. We don't care any more that there are other people who love those things that we don't, and that they're Americans too. We don't worry about some day being in the minority and having no one care about our rights being taken away by an out-of-control government. We don't worry about a government becoming so powerful that it will soon no longer need the support of a majority.

    "Love my country, fear my government."
  22. hypewaders Save Changes Registered Senior Member

    Hear, hear- Eloquent, Fraggle.
  23. radicand Registered Senior Member

    Funny, but the material in my house (or the bank's if you wish) needs a warrant to be searched. Banks do not have resources or desire to physically make sure everything in my house is kept. Thusly, my presumed privacy rights. For two reasons, while it is true the ownership is in the bank's hands it is being transferred slowly with each payment Therefore, the bank owns what I have not paid for yet. Thusly, dual ownership. It is called a business transaction. They have something I want. I have something they want. Then, the furniture, etc within the house that I partially own is already my personal property.

    Your public restroom point is trivial.

    Your road argument is false, because you are presuming that the government owns it. Where did the government get the money????

    And precisely what has the government told about what they are doing that has you so upset? As I recall, they are searching for leads on terrrorist activities.

    I value personal freedom as much as anyone. I would be concerned if some of the government activity was happening during peacetime. But then therein lies the problem, you and others like do not see this time as a time of war.

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