What to do with North Korea

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ElectricFetus, Aug 2, 2017.

  1. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I just think it could get even more monstrous and china would still not give a fuck.

    I asked the same questions so I read the memoirs from people that escaped North Korea: With enough brainwashing, enough fear, and not enough food to really be concerned with more than day to day existence, only a few thousand try to escape every year and of them none dare try to take over the goverment. It really is amazing how right Orwell was about the human condition: so very few would rebel if brainwashed from birth, if starved and keep in chronic fear of even questioning the goverment, even in front of their own families. There is no rebellious spirit there, it is crushed, at best a few figure out they must escape. Now if North Korea was to really start prospering from open trade, feel their lives stabilize, then they might start making demands of the goverment, and the elite know this and thus must keep the screws down tight.

    If they stop trying to acheive that dream, then the population will start questioning. One way or another they need to force the US out and force concessions out of the south in order to show the people how strong and powerful and righteous the goverment is.
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    In part, some of the solution could actually be found in allowing open trade and allow that commercial motivation to corrupt their own ideology.
    A bit like allowing Muslim refugees to mix with Christians allows the Christian influence to impact on the Muslim. In other words by breaking down the isolation, change will be inevitable ( over a long period of time)
    But as you are suggesting, I think , the regime would hinder it's own free trade to prevent too much exposure to it's population.
    You may have noticed that the assassination of Kim's cousin ( or was it brother) was carried out by those not from NK?
    The thinking is that any time a NK citizen is exposed to the outside world there is a strong chance they will defect, so they employed foreigners to do the nasty instead. (or so the media hype suggests)
     
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  5. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah they know this, which is why they PREFER sabre rattling and sanctions over open trade.

    Yes yes I am, even china does it to a degree, although china is much more based around placating at this point then fear and brainwashing, they have an extensive firewall (the great firewall of china) and have their own versions of google and ebay and amazon in order to limit trade and exchange of ideas.

    It was his brother, and it was carried out by North Korea.
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/asia/kim-jong-nam-north-korea-killed/index.html
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Kim_Jong-nam

    If you read "Tears of My Soul" by Hyun Hee Kim you would understand how this fits a pattern of north korea recruiting female spies.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Hyon-hui

    Maybe, though according to Hyun Hee Kim, it is more of "we will kill your family" who are usually kept in North Korea.
     
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  7. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40842068

    China clearly does not want MAD, if North Korea continues to nuclearize, then South Korea will, Japan will, maybe even Taiwan and the Philippines, Malaysia, etc, So in loo of trump being a moronic pig boar, china is pull up their pants and telling north korea off.
     
  8. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    It seems that "sanctions" do not have the desired effect. (Unless the desired effect is not the "publicly acknowledged desired effect")
    From my perspective, it seems that sanctions (at most) inconvenience the elites while making the poor suffer.

    or:
    I could be wrong.

    ..................
    Did sanctions prevent NK from developing atomic weapons?
    Did sanctions prevent NK from developing ballistic missiles?

    Can you name one good thing that sanctions have accomplished?
     
  9. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well for North Korea sanctions have been ineffective, most likely because china keeps giving them trade as china fears a collapsed North Korea and a southern unifed korea that is allied with the americans, and perhaps some older chinese elite don't want to making fighting that korea war ultimately lead to a failed state, but now china CLAIMS they are putting their foot down and cutting North Korea official income by 1/3. China wants an end to this such that other Asian countries don't also arm with nukes, countries that china wants to bully around, yet at the same time china want North Korea to remain as a suckling ally, so china is in a bind.
     
  10. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    In a younger day, when I knew that i was lost, I drove faster.

    perhaps
    insanity really is repeating the same mistake over and over again and expecting different results

    however
    in for a penny in for a pound
    just go faster
     
  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    alternately
    one could view NK as monty python's black knight?
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    aaah, uuum, maybe



    And of course what do actual north koreans think:

     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    They got rid of Saddam's WMDs in the '90s, and probably South Africa's apartheid government.

    But the net - hard to see where it's positive. NK? Waste effort.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    I see a contradiction.
    We are discussing NK isolationism due to preventing western exposure upon a thoroughly conditioned population, yet according to the documentary you posted Kim has sent his children to a Swiss school for an education.
    This flies in the face of the earlier position of intense isolationism.
    Three children educated abroad are three potential defectors later... sort of thingo...

    So something about this doesn't quite add up.
    It was/is, if a true account, also a "surprisingly" rational decision, that demonstrates Kim's dis-satisfaction with NK education.
    Either the video is fake news or something is not right about attitudes towards NK.
    ( disclaimer: I didn't watch the entire video due to time restraints)

    The Chinese have a rather unique problem in that they have had to manage a massive population evolving from 3rd world status into a more contemporary and affluent position. Slowly and inexorably moving towards a more democratic system ( initially at a local level then progressing to regional)
    The Chinese have always been interested in societal conditioning ( control) as a very important part of that evolutionary process. ( The now rescinded one child policy is a great example)
    The fact that there has not been major revolution in China since 1945 ( remember 2 billion people ) is rather worthy of respect even if the means has been rather draconian by Western standards.
    NK could very well be seen by the Chinese as a sort of test bed for how a government can control its population, taking lessons learned and applying them to their own population and probably was/is clandestinely supporting the methods used by the NK regime. Hence their reluctance to interfere as in many ways they may feel to be directly, or most likely indirectly responsible for the controlling nature of NKs regime and ultimately the NK nuclear program.

    New Sanctions
    Given what we know about NK the financial sanctions are only going to inflame the issues IMO.

    BUT, and I believe this is important, the UN security council has finally made what I believe is a genuine unanimous and basically voluntary decision with out excessive/unconscionable USA influence, as is normally the case)

    This is to me encouraging, that the UN is also slowly maturing into the egalitarian and voluntary global governance body it needs to evolve into.

    The decision to place such sanctions upon NK was I believe unfortunately necessary as no other alternative other than forced cessation of NK nuke program is possible. ( War being seen as the only other option.)
    How NK reacts will be interesting and I hope we all can live to learn the lessons needed to prevent something similar happening again..
    NK's nuke program offers a fantastic opportunity for the modern world ( not just the USA) to get a handle on this Nuclear non-proliferation issue. A serious and inevitable lesson in progress....
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  15. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Oh like is brother, who is dead, or is other brother who is probably dead? Kin Jung Un's up-bringing has nothing to do with the North Korean peasantry.



    Of course they are rational! What they are doing is perfectly rational, sabre rattle to get concessions to keep the regime alive and prevent attack. When Un executed his uncle, his half brother, half the generals he did not do it because he is crazy, he did it because they threaten his reign, he did it to show the rest of the population he will kill them to, anyone, that questions his power. That not insanity, that just what kings do to keep power.

    Under single party rule, and the people are ok with that, so long as their bank accounts continue to grow.

    I guess, maybe.

    HAHAHaaa https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ens-rights-commission/?utm_term=.95114241f555

    OOOOOoooooow cliff hanger.
     
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    It is sort of interesting that the world seems fixated with the notion that the UN is primarily about human rights when in fact according to it's own founding charter it is more about preventing WW3.

    By allowing the Saudi membership for the women's rights commission allows the Saudi's to be exposed to the issues that others have with their treatment of women. Ultimately it means that the isolation that allows the discrimination to continue eases and eventually the Saudi regime will change it's approach.

    Maybe Kimmy of NK could do with membership on the security council? (non-voting perhaps)
    He would soon learn where NK is at regarding global concerns and in turn the world can garner their sanity.

    just thoughts...
     
  17. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Pretty sure Kim knows no one gives a fuck about north korea, that what all the saber rattling is for, to try to get people to give a fuck.
     
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  18. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  19. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    I'm living in a modest home. Kim should come over to my house for a couple weeks. He would definitely change his mind about America.
     
  20. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    "North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States," Trump told reporters, speaking slowly and deliberately with his arms crossed in front of him. "They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen. He has been very threatening ... and as I said they will be met with fire, fury and frankly power, the likes of which this world has never seen before."
    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/08/trump-warns-north-korea-threats-will-be-met-with-fire-and-fury.html

    Lovely...
     
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  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Oh... fuck! So anyone want to bet me the North Korea will up the ante? This is exactly what they want! I also put bets trump will make some kind of limited attack and North Korea will proclaim those attacks ineffective and will make some kind of reprisal attack that they have calculated won't for the USA and other to invade. Long story short: people are going to die, and probably soon.
     
  22. Xmo1 Registered Senior Member

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    They don't know who their enemies are. An enemy is the one who shoots at you. That just goes to the biological heart of it. Solution: Don't shoot at each other. That is ethic numero uno. Two guy's were standing in a field with the awesomest slingshots. Ouch. Said One. Oh aaaaa. Said the other. Then One said, I won't shoot you if you don't shoot me. [handshake and smile]. They went looking for ducks.
     
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  23. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Wacthing that video shows Trump is about to lose it...his anger and self righteousness is almost overwhelming him. Hope there is some system in place to prevent impulsive venting by Trump.
     
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