What would you do if you knew the truth?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Mike, Dec 9, 1999.

1. LoriRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,065
Searcher,

You can say what if about anything, but that does not foster the truth. The fact is that the circumstance that you proposed will never happen. It's impossible. I mean, the truth IS the truth. It's not subjective to our suggestions, or interpretations, or desires, or understanding. We don't have anything to do with drawing that line. All we can do is recognize that it exists and who did draw it and why.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

3. SearcherRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
651
Lori,

It is becoming more and more apparent to me that Christians are incapable of answering this type of question regarding their religious beliefs. Everyone else is capable of at least giving it a fair shot - but it is a major mental block in the mind of a Christian. That's just the way it is and I guess I can accept that. The thing I have a hard time figuring out is, if you can't follow the rules of a particular game - why do you bother to play at all?

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www.indigenousrocks.com

5. Corp.HudsonRegistered Senior Member

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419
Searcher: Do not make such broad stereotyping statements. Yes, it is true. Many christians are mindless zealots who have never seriously questioned their beliefs, but many are not zealots. Heres my answers (to prove you worng

):

If I found out my god existed, I would not change anything. If I found out that a god existed, but not mine, I would worship him according to his preferences. If I found out there was no god, I would keep on living a christian life (though I would stop praying

).

Hope this helps you to see there are many kinds of christians, and some are actually intelligent.

7. SearcherRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
651
Corp. Hudson,

Have you definitely decided that you are a Christian yet? The last time we discussed this, you seemed to be a bit confused as to what religion you were (you were wavering between Judaism and Christianity, as I recall). If that's still the case, then it doesn't really count. But if you have in fact made that commitment, then congratulations on having proven me wrong.

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www.indigenousrocks.com

8. ilgwamhFallen AngelRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
317
Someone said this:
"""My view on truth is this; there is no single Truth in the universe."""

Yet, in order for your statement to be accurate, it must be true (an absolute truth).

"""There are many truths, perhaps infinitely many."""

The first half of your statements must also be an absolute truth if it is accurate.

To sum up, basically your saying there is no single truth but at the same time saying that there is no single truth is a single truth of the universe. I think you need to rethink your philosophy. It contradicts itself.

I know the truth. I have a personal relationship with the truth and I encourage you to do the same if you do not already.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life"

""""". I believe he is not what the Christians and other monotheistic religions believe he is, however. I think he's just one of many gods and goddesses, and they have singled him out for some reason. I don't believe he did a lot of what they think he did, either. I don't believe Jesus was his son, I don't think Mary had a "virgin birth". I think Jesus WAS a good man, but he was just as human and mortal as you and I. I agree with you, Oxygen, I think he was what we would call a cult leader today. """"""'

C.S. said this in "mere christianity" page 56:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a good moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

"""""Yes, although I do consider all things to be possible, I do question all things - including your story of having "met" God. Did you "see" God, as well as "hear" Him? Or did you just hear a voice that may have come from a register or intercom, and decide that it was "God" talking to you? How do you know it wasn't aliens putting on a show for you? """"

God talks to me over the telephone. He even uses 1-800-COLLECT.

""""What if there are two or more groups of aliens competing for control of this planet, and when they give orders or advice or information to humans, they all claim to be "God" or angels of God? Have you put any of your experiences to critical analysis?""""

You may have a point. A very dull one at that. That gets the dreaded thunmbs down. It may seem like an alternate explanation at first glance but under meticulous scrutinization it will end up just like that face on mars. In the gutter. The claim could always be made but it woulkd be broken down to a point of being just plain silly.

""""Also, it seems to me that Jesus was more interested in glory for himself. He thinks he is the ONLY son of God...that he is PERFECT in every way...and that he is the only KEY for people to get to God. I think he had an ego problem. It seems all he wants is credit and praise...and not really concerned with our search for truth.""""

The self degredation He suffered on the cross proves your point. Oops, no it doesn't. It says just the opposite. You can tell jesus that personally on judgement day. Personally, I think your jealous. De Nile aint just a river in Egypt. Jesus was, is, and always has been God. The truth is the truth whether it glorifies yourself or not.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

9. Corp.HudsonRegistered Senior Member

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419
Jesus of Nazareth was not an egomaniacal freak. He was one of the humblest men on earth...he even let a robber go free instead of him.

igwamh: Jesus is more equivalent to a divine Gandhi then a divine David Koresh.

Searcher: Yes, I have accepted Jesus as the son of god. So, technically I am a christian.

10. truestoryRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,122
Searcher,

You wrote:

Please, let me remind you of something about me which we have discussed before... I don't care for fiction. Hopefully, this helps clear things up a bit. If not...

I believe that I previously answered the question in general by explaining how I have handled such disappointments in the past. To sum up my response, I am usually disappointed at first, however, I accept such imperfections in life, I get over it and I move on with the knowledge which I have gained from the experience.

Believe me, I am not putting you off, Searcher. If you desire a more specific answer then I need more clarification in order to answer your question specifically. What I need to know is this:

- Who is it that you believe has lied to me? And...

- What perspective are you coming from when you say "all this time"? What is your impression of the length of time which I have held my belief in God, the need for repentance and the acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Savior?

You went on to say:

First of all Searcher, if one has "lack of knowledge about a certain truth" then, yes, they are ignorant with respect to that certain truth. However, as someone pointed out in this thread, there are actually many truths. We learn some and we do not learn others during our lifetime. So, to a certain extent, we are all blissfully ignorant.

The main "simple" question was "What would you do if you knew the truth?" and I believe that I have answered that.

There were other subsequent suppositions and examples given by the author of this thread after the main "simple" question was posed. However, I don't think anyone has fully explored every one of those peripheral ideas and questions which were thrown out for us to think about. As usual in this forum, the debate seems to focus on questions with respect to the existence of God and that's just fine with me!

With respect to that, for some reason (and it seems to me to be because I have explained that I know the truth about the existence of God), this aggravates people to no end. Not having had the same experiences that I have had, I realize that this is hard for others to accept, however, they should "know" that it is not impossible... Otherwise, why would they even bother searching? There are people here who claim to be searching for the truth, but when others share their experiences of having found the truth, some of these same, self-proclaimed searchers get all riled up to the point of attempted slamming with derogatory remarks, etc...

These type of reactions seem to substantiate a state of close-mindedness and a steadfast, contemptuous denial of God more than open-mindedness in search for the truth. Please keep in mind that fanatically committed individuals (zealots) can be found in all walks of life, even among non-believers.

Again, I believe that I have thus far answered the original question, in general, based on how I have handled "actual" instances of being mislead or lied to in life. Now, if you need more specific or "special" answers, please provide me with the clarification requested above and I will be happy to continue the discussion in more detail.

Having said that, there are a couple of "what if" questions which I would like to ask you, if you don't mind.

"What if" you were to hear an audible voice which told you where your missing child was... would you be comfortable enough with yourself to trust your senses and act on what you heard (even if it meant being subject to the ridicule of others when you have to explain how you found your child)? Or, would you allow yourself to be limited by the lies (or mistaken belief) of others who have always told you that these types of things just don't happen... and, as a result, would you NOT act because of these externally-imposed limitations?

"What if" you were at a New Year's Eve celebration and a couple at your table had a loud argument which made everyone in your company uncomfortable... and the man left... and you heard everyone else saying that it was over and that they were glad he left... BUT, you heard an audible voice which told you and noone else that the man was going to get a knife... again, are you comfortable enough with yourself to know that you are perfectly capable of discerning real from imagined? Do you trust your senses enough to believe and act upon what you heard by informing others and by being on guard when he returns? Or, would you allow yourself to limited by what others have told you is impossible and/or intimidated by the fear of ridicule?

"What if" you were visited by the soul of a deceased family member who gave you a specific message to deliver to another family member, a message that made absolutely no sense to you... would you trust your senses enough to "know" that the experience was real and deliver the message? Or, would externally-imposed, limited belief systems and fear of ridicule cause you to let the message die with you?

I really don't know what perspective your answers will be coming from because I do not know what your actual experience or lack of experience with (let's call it) "the paranormal" has been... but, I would like to know that, too... What has been your experience with "other than what is considered normal" senses/dimensions and how did you react to these experiences?

FyreStar,

This???
From the one who contradicts themself by stating an ASSUMED absolute truth, with NO BASIS whatsoever, that there is no absolute truth...???!!!

If you consider knowledge of the truth to be arrogance, then, so be it. If you assume an infinite number of truths and assume a position which denies the existence of "the truth" with respect to God, are you not then assuming an infinitely arrogant position? Living life in a state which lacks (or denies) knowledge of the truth or even the possibility of the truth being known with respect to God, in particular, could give some people a TEMPORARY sense of well-being, I guess. Exactly the kind of temporal sense of well-being which makes Satan so proud, I might add.

Ah, what the heck... Let me modify that last paragraph... I don't "guess"... I "know" because I've been there, too.

Additionally, FyreStar, God has asked that I share these words of Jesus with you:

"My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here."

"For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice."

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 13, 1999).]

11. FlashRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
771
No, Ts...that is not what I think. There is a Spirit of Truth though...and this Spirit of Truth does not seek glory or praise..nor, is the spirit concerned with credit. The Spirit of Truth is concerned with people finding Truth. Upon learning truth we will advance.
I am sorry but I disagree, TS. I do not have a problem with one being more powerful or more knowledgeable..not at all. What I do have a problem with is the deception that Jesus has caused. I have my own reasons for
knowing this to be true.
Yes, behind curtain number two...the prize..
hell, hell, hell. Right? Yeah, right. Hell is a state of mind....not to mention very alive on earth. You can talk of the love of your God and Jesus...but it's false.
If I'm wrong then I'll eat your hat.

12. SkyeBlueRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
260
Lori -

I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to say in your previous post (I've been gone awhile, just got to read all these posts since my last) - but I want to point out that Witchcraft is not a "new age" religion. It predates Christianity by thousands of years, in many different forms. In fact, a good many Pagan traditions have been incorporated into modern-day "Christian" holidays. Ever wonder where the 'easter bunny' came from? And why exactly was Jesus's birthday moved from the spring to December? What about the "christmas" tree? All of these have roots in ancient pagan customs, and there are many more examples.

I do see that witchcraft has changed over the centuries, so perhaps the argument could be made that modern witchcraft is not the same as ancient witchcraft, so it IS 'new age', but that same argument could be used with Christianity as well. Religions change with the times, as they should.

I do relate to you when you say that every time you have a question, the bible answers it for you. When ever I have a question, I seem to be able to find the answer through meditation, if I am patient enough, and my need is great enough, the Lord & Lady will answer me. I have seen this already in my lifetime, I was just unaware of the source of the information. You speak of "KNOWING" the truth, well, I "KNOW" the Lord & Lady exist just as surely as you KNOW God and Jesus exist(ed). Your truth is as valid for you as my truth is valid for me.

Please don't equate my faith to satanism. It is not, absolutely, undoubtably not. Indeed, my faith existed prior to mankind's meeting with your fallen angel. The Christian Satan has no place in my framework, and if he does exist, there is no plate at my table for him to dine at. I speak to the Lord and Lady in the spirit of love and generosity. Satan would find me a tough convert, his favorite emotions of hate and jealousy have lost their power over me. I find strength inside me and use it to combat those emotions, and ask the power to fill me up again when I am spent.

Not that I am not above emotional outbursts, I have a bad temper that I struggle with! Ask anyone! Heh, heh. But a bad temper can be controlled, it is not an excuse I use to run around acting like an ahole.

Again, Lori, I'm not sure if this was directed towards me or not, but surely you don't equate Witchcraft to a sugar pill?? It is the ultimate responsibility. I control my life, and I have none to blame for what goes wrong in it. If I cause harm in the world, I can't just say I'm sorry and get off the hook. I have nobody dying to make my life easier (there is no Jesus in my framework). It is responsibility to use the knowledge and power I might gain to only better myself and those I may effect. I may not use it against another without their permission, even a simple healing spell is forbidden without assent from the targeted person. It is the ultimate self-help tool. It is the innate power that each of us posseses. YOU have the same power, and I bet you use it without even thinking about it. Ever try to "think yourself well"? That's the core of witchcraft.

13. FyreStarFaithless since 1980Registered Senior Member

Messages:
229
truestory -
Eh?!?

I don't know where you think I stated an absolute truth. I merely posted my opinion on 'the' truth. My reasoning? 1+1 = 2. That is a truth. 2+2 = 4. That is also a truth. That makes two truths so far. Therefore there is no single, all encompassing truth. Please point out where I am 'contrdicting' myself.

Next, I'm really getting tired of people like you and Lori twisting the wording of my posts. Really, if you can't debate fairly, you must have weak case. You know damn well I wasn't saying that knowledge and truth are arrogance. I was saying that taking an un-quantifiable belief and touting it as supreme truth is arrogant. Also, I never denied the existance of a god, so don't put words in my mouth. However, saying there is a god just to make yourself feel better isn't soothsaying. Somebody watching a David Copperfield act could 'know' he made the Statue of Liberty disappear, but that doesn't mean he actually did. Human minds are fallible and foolable, especially by themselves.

As an aside, how exactly would not believing in a god give a greater sense of well being than believing in one??? Lets see.. on one hand, final death, questionable reasons for living, and no 'higher power' to protect you.. on the other; a sheltering hand, surety in an afterlife, and foreknowledge of eternal bliss. Hmmmmmmm...

On a final thought.. next time, tell 'God' to tell me himself. 'He' would find me most receptive.

FyreStar

14. SearcherRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
651
SkyeBlue,

In your message to Lori, you wrote:

This is my feeling exactly! To me, there's something very suspicious about a religion whose core requirement for getting into heaven is that you must acknowledge spiritual insolvency - that is, you cannot or will not pay your own karmic debts, so someone else must pay them for you - with his life! One thing I've learned in this life - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch!

By the way, did you get my email I sent you yesterday? Just wondering...

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www.indigenousrocks.com

15. SearcherRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
651
Truestory,

Yes, I have had my share of paranormal experiences, and when I get one of those warnings, I do my best to heed it. It has kept me out of trouble many times in my life. The problem in my case is that they aren't audible, making it very difficult for me to distinguish them from my own thoughts, so I may be a bit slower to respond than you. If I ever received audible messages about my safety or the safety of others, I would certainly pay attention and respond as directed, until I found a reason not to (e.g., if those giving me the audible messages turned out to be lying to me most of the time and my reactions to those messages caused me more harm than good). That doesn't mean that I would fall for everything I was told by this same voice, hook, line and sinker. I would certainly consider that I might have been set up for those experiences just to make me trust "them", whoever "they" might be (I am really not a very trusting person, in case you hadn't figured that out by now).

Truestory, I noticed that you didn't comment on the scripture I quoted to you which stated that no man has seen God at any time (John 1:18). Do you feel this verse doesn't apply to you because you are a woman? Or maybe for some other reason? I'm very curious about this, since this scripture directly contradicts your conclusions regarding your experience.

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www.indigenousrocks.com

16. OxygenOne Hissy KittyRegistered Senior Member

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2,478
SkyeBlue-I know it's ben awhile since you posted your experiences, but I've been busy. I agree with your hesitance to say "one nation under God" during our Pledge of Allegiance. I, too, would skip that part. I still do. Here's the nifty thing, though. My dad's uncle passed away and left us a lot of his personal effects. Among them was a copy of the Pledge of Allegiance that he got when he became a citizen of the United States back before World War Two. This document is dated for 1936, and as I read it I saw that the phrase "under God" does not exist. I found out from some local old-timers that nobody said "under God" until the mid fifties, when everybody was trying to be true-blue Americans (and non-Christians were automatically suspect by the HUAC). In it's proper phrasing, before the Cold War, here is the Pledge of Allegiance:
There is absolutely no harm in saying "one nation under God" if you want to. The harm is when you force others to say it. How thoughtful of the person who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance to realize that we weren't all believers in gods.

17. truestoryRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,122
Hello Flash and thanks for responding. I must admit, though, that I am a bit confused as to why you would respond in the way that you did to the following:

The reason I am a bit confused is because my above remarks were to those who still claimed to be "searching"... I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly, I thought you had stated a while back that you had "found" the truth...? I also believe that, at that time, I asked if you could bring yourself to share what you had learned with us. Sorry if I missed it.... But... In order to know the Spirit of Truth, which I believe is much more complex than the simple truth, one would most assuredly need to know the truth. So, could you please clarify? Do you believe that you have found the truth? If so, what is it and how has it affected your life?

I am also not clear about and, therefore, cannot really discuss the comments which you made to the following:

In the interest of sharing in an open and honest discussion, Flash, I would really like to know the reasons why you believe this to be true.

Again, I'm a bit confused as to how you came to the conclusions that you did, as follows:

If you believe that hell exists, than why would it matter to you what form it takes? And what causes you to state that the love of God and Jesus is false?

Although I firmly believe that there is nothing "wrong" with being wrong, misunderstanding or being mislead about something, your last statement gave me a bit of a chuckle because... I don't own a hat.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 13, 1999).]

18. truestoryRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,122
FyreStar,

For now, I would like to focus on what I consider to be the MOST important aspect of your response, which is:

First, I must tell you that I did not solicit those instructions from God yesterday, nor did I know what the message would be until I opened the Bible to immediately find the message which God wanted you to receive. As a matter of fact, FyreStar, I am not that familiar with the Bible to even be able to inform you as to where to find the words today.

Second, as one who has been asked by God to spread the word, I do not question God's delivery methods and would not be so arrogant or irreverent as to "tell" God what to do. However...

Finally, I would be happy to inform God that you are open and receptive to direct communication, only IF what you say is "the truth" in your spirit, your heart and your mind... Please let me know.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 13, 1999).]

19. FlashRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
771
TS,
Sorry TS, I did not mean to confuse you. Let me back track...you are correct in that I did state I found truth..the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth is of course THE source...but, there is so much to truth...it goes on and on...
At this time I am sorry to say...to elaborate on the truth that has been taught to me at this time ...I am not ready to spit it out yet on this bb. But yes, I have found the Spirit of Truth. It has affected my life in that there has been many things shown to me ...things that I need to work on double time...it has opened my eyes not only to the things I need to change..but also has revealed many "false truths" that are out there.
Well, simple..this was shown to me by the Spirit of Truth.

I just do not believe that hell exists in the way you do...with Satan and the demons and stuff. It's not a matter of form...rather it has to do with the "christian view" Do as God says or WHAM!!!!! DOWN BELOW YOU GO!!!! Of course..that's where all the bad good for nothing non-believers go...right?
The reason that I believe the love of God and Jesus is false is a combination of it being taught to me and also in my own personal findings throughout life.

20. FyreStarFaithless since 1980Registered Senior Member

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229
truestory -
I do not know how I can convey the depth of my sincerity over the internet. All I have ever wanted in this regard was some form of proof. Truth is foremost.

FyreStar

21. SkyeBlueRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
260
Searcher!!

Yes, I did just now pull up your email. I have a bad habit of not checking my home email...

I will respond to you when I get home tonight, work email is monitored.

22. SkyeBlueRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
260
Oxygen -

Hey babe! Thanks for the bit of trivia! I wish I would have known that in first grade, it probably would have saved a lot of arguing with my mom!

I just didn't feel it, and what's the point in saying it if you're not sincere?? Like forcing an un-aplogetic child to say they're sorry when they obviously don't feel that way. Pointless.

23. LoriRegistered Senior Member

Messages:
1,065
Searcher,

I have no flippin' idea what you are talking about regarding "us people" and this this question. The question is if you knew the truth, what would you do? I think I can speak for the majority of Christians here when I say that the answer to that question is.....that we would tell it! How the bleep is that avoiding the question?

Wait, it just occurred to me...you don't like the fact that we think we have found the truth, right? Well, let's clarify some things. When you speak of truth, you may mean reality as we all see it in our face. When I speak of the truth, I am referring to an ideal which exists, which you never see in your face. I can say that I KNOW that Jesus is the Son of God, beyond that, there are things about the faith that I feel very sure I understand completely. But I am not in any way saying that I understand EVERYTHING, everything about the faith, or everything about anything. That's impossible to accomplish in a lifetime. You can't be human and alive and do that. Actually, I think that's what happens to you when you die. If you go to heaven, you get to see, to understand all that you did not know while alive. In hell, you don't get any smarter than you are now, thus the hell.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 14, 1999).]