What's gonna happen when He's coming for you?(Tiassa, you'll like it!)

***All of this is speculation, there is no evidence of fact in this whatsoever*

Now, with that out of the way:


Quoted from Whammy in the Conspirasies forum:

Damn good words if you ask me, and something that i want to discuss with you here:

I think many of you christians here are pretty worried of not winning the prize of dining with Jesus at the big table if he shows up.

A valid question huh?

Let's just say that this happened and that he came down here to pick up the 300.000 somewhat people.

Do you think he would be fetching christians only? Or people with a pure heart that have done everything right in their life, but not believing in any religion whatsoever.

That is the fundamental problem with Christianity, you don't have to join the club to be a good person, allthough christians believe that. If a person has a good heart, lives a great respectful life, why would he not be selected? Just because he hasn't given the church all his money, but instead done what he within reason could do for other people.

In other words - Would a person like Mother Teresa if she wasn't christian ( never baptised, etc) join the 300.000?

------------------
.Religion is for those who fear hell, Spirituality is for those who have been there.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

H-KON,
the prophecy about only so many souls being saved in the end times, originated in the old testament and is specific to numbers of people of different Jewish clans.

Given that the Jews have the 'Law' to abide under for their Godly grace, shouldn't this prophecy still apply to them?

If it does, where do the Christians fit in?

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

I didnt know that at all Tab - Thanks for that. I learn something new every day, so this law then affects all that are somehow tied to everyone who had ties with Jesus.

I guess the odds of winning this game just went up.

Funny no christians have replied yet though.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

H-kon
"Funny no christians have replied yet though."

Guess they are confering with the Holy Ghost" for the the answear to this "mystery" or inconsistency in the scripters. At least thats one of the answears I've seen in this Forum before when they were avoiding answearing a valid question.

Sorry.........I'm just pure evil and just couldn't let this one go by.

[This message has been edited by Zappers (edited January 17, 2000).]

 

Hello Guys and Gals,

The truth of the matter is that the answer concerning the question of salvation has been answered specifically by God and His answer has been conveyed a number of times previously on this board. For those who missed it:

First, let's look at some of the things which salvation is "not"... Salvation is not doing good works. Salvation is not giving money to a church. Salvation is not being born Jewish. Salvation is not calling yourself a Christian.

Who will be saved then? The answer from God is... those who truly accept God's gift of salvation through Jesus Christ will be saved.

Now, we might be able to identify a person who has accepted Jesus Christ into their life, such as Mother Teresa, by their good works. However, such good works were most likely the result of her having accepting Jesus Christ into her life. Not necessarily though, since there can be other factors which motivate one to do good works. It is the acceptance of God's gift of salvation through Jesus Christ by which Mother Teresa would be saved... Not her good works. Whether she is saved or not is a matter between her and God. God truly knows what is in one's heart.

I hope that helps.

Peace.

 

Truestory

This time I'm not trying to be evil or a smart butt. I'm serious.

From your answear I assume the numbers above from the Old Testiment now become meaningless???

 

Author Topic: What's gonna happen when He's coming for you?(Tiassa, you'll like it!)

H-kon
Member posted January 17, 2000 04:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
***All of this is speculation, there is no evidence of fact in this whatsoever*
Now, with that out of the way:

Quoted from Whammy in the Conspirasies forum:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.... what's going to happen to all of us "Christian's". Only a couple hundred thousand of us
have our names written down in the book of life. Of course, only if you have accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savoir and live
"holy" life as much as possible.
But what I'm getting at is here we are some almost 2000 years after Jesus rose again and I'm wondering.......just how many spots in
the book are left?!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Damn good words if you ask me, and something that i want to discuss with you here:

I think many of you christians here are pretty worried of not winning the prize of dining with Jesus at the big table if he shows up.

A valid question huh?

Let's just say that this happened and that he came down here to pick up the 300.000 somewhat people.

Do you think he would be fetching christians only? Or people with a pure heart that have done everything right in their life, but not believing in any religion whatsoever.

That is the fundamental problem with Christianity, you don't have to join the club to be a good person, allthough christians believe that. If a person has a good heart, lives a great respectful life, why would he not be selected? Just because he hasn't given the church all his money, but instead done what he within reason could do for other people.

In other words - Would a person like Mother Teresa if she wasn't christian ( never baptised, etc) join the 300.000?

------------------
.Religion is for those who fear hell, Spirituality is for those who have been there.

IP: Logged


Hello H-Kon,

I'd like to take some time out to discuss the above. I don't know who Whammy is and I haven't read his post so I'm not entirely sure of where you or he get the numbers from or the slant you've taken on Christianity and salvation. The only reference to numbers is in the book of Revelation where it talks about the 144 thousand from the 12 tribes of Israel who are pure and holy. As for the Lambs book of life it contains the name of every man, woman and child who has lived throughout history.

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes will be dressed in white, and I will not take his name from the book of life, and I will give witness to his name before my Father, and before his angels. (H2o - for Him not to take the name out means it has always been there).

Matthew 10:32 Jesus said "To everyone, then, who gives witness to me before men, I will give witness before my Father in heaven."

Romans 10:9 Because, if you say with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and have faith in your heart that God has made him come back from the dead, you will have salvation:

1 John 1:9 If we say openly that we have done wrong, he is upright and true to his word, giving us forgiveness of sins and making us clean from all evil.

So according to the Bible the story is somewhat different than what you have been led to believe. Jesus gives everyone the right to salvation as a free gift. It is our decision to either accept or reject the gift that causes our names to be removed from the book of life.


You also mention about doing good and not needing to be a Christian to do good and therefore be OK.

Quote: That is the fundamental problem with Christianity, you don't have to join the club to be a good person, allthough christians believe that. If a person has a good heart, lives a great respectful life, why would he not be selected?

Ephesians 2:8 Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God:
9 not on the principle of works, that no one might boast.

Well unfortunately what you've been led to believe and what the Bible says are in conflict. Its by grace that we are save through faith and not by our works so that we can't boast about being good enough.

Jesus even pointed this out:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens. 22 Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied through *thy* name, and through *thy* name cast out demons, and through *thy* name done many works of power? 23 and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness. 24 Whoever therefore hears these my words and does them, I will liken him to a prudent man, who built his house upon the rock; 25 and the rain came down, and the streams came, and the winds blew and fell upon that house, and it did not fall, for it had been founded upon the rock. 26 And every one who hears these my words and does not do them, he shall be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand; 27 and the rain came down, and the streams came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, and it fell, and its fall was great.

So you see its not what we do its who we know and have a living relationship with as Christians. The keys are "but he that does the will of my Father" and "Depart from me, I never knew you".

I hope this helps to clear up what a true Christian believes and what the Bible teaches on theses subjects. If I can assist further then please post another message.

Take care - H2o

PS If you want to know more about who I am you can find out in OVERVIEW under religo or aliens.


tablariddim
Member posted January 17, 2000 11:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H-KON,
the prophecy about only so many souls being saved in the end times, originated in the old testament and is specific to numbers of people of different Jewish clans.
Given that the Jews have the 'Law' to abide under for their Godly grace, shouldn't this prophecy still apply to them?

If it does, where do the Christians fit in?

Tab,

Can you give me a reference point on that statement? We may be able to clear it up or otherwise have a greater truth revealed and all be a little more the wiser.

Thanks - H2o


H-kon
Member posted January 17, 2000 03:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I didnt know that at all Tab - Thanks for that. I learn something new every day, so this law then affects all that are somehow tied to everyone who had ties with Jesus.
I guess the odds of winning this game just went up.

Funny no christians have replied yet though.

Hello, guess who just turned up? H2o.

Zappers
Junior Member posted January 17, 2000 05:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H-kon
"Funny no christians have replied yet though."
Guess they are confering with the Holy Ghost" for the the answear to this "mystery" or inconsistency in the scripters. At least thats one of the answears I've seen in this Forum before when they were avoiding answearing a valid question.

Sorry.........I'm just pure evil and just couldn't let this one go by.


Your not evil Zappers, just bent a bit. It will take a strong hammer to straighten you out but I know a great carpenter who's good with tools.

Take care - H2o.

 

Zappers,

With respect to the numbers, I am running into the same difficulty that Tony is in that I do not know where Whammy got these numbers from.

Do you?

However, I think that Tony explained the meaning of the book of life correctly.

I hope this helps.

Peace.

 

One request-Tony, please stop copying entire threads. It looks terrible. Contact Dave if you're having trouble. He's good about helping. Believe it or not, so are most of the people on this board. Thanks.

As for the question, if God will only let us into heaven if we love Jesus, then that's a conditional love and I'll have no part of it. If God picked 300,000 people to go to heaven and I was among those, I'd refuse and let someone in who wanted to go. There's too much work here to be done for me to abandon ship like that.

------------------
I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will fight, kill, and die for your right to say it.

 

Oxygen,

What work do you think the rejection of salvation through Jesus Christ might enable you to perform once your flesh dies and what ship do you perceive yourself on that you wouldn't want to abandon and that you think you could continue to ride after death?

 

To know Christ is a surrender of the will.. It is dying to myself, my will, my desires and allowing Christ to fill me with his. It is a daily decision to walk with him, not so I can "do mighty works" but because I love him, because he is the ruler of my heart. The works come because you love him, you love others, you see and feel the pain of those who hurt. You hear his voice, and do what his spirit has asked you to do. When you love that much its easy to do what your lover ask--Christ is the lover of my soul..His love goes beyond any love thats here on this earth..It is not even measurable.. Walking in fear of death is not what Christ came to do-- He came to free us from death and offer us the chance to be one with his spirit - to be sons and daughters - he passed on his power to those who truly seek him. It is the intention of our hearts, the desires of our hearts that provokes all of us to do what we do.. Christ wants to be our desire, of our own free will, when he becomes that desire it is life changing....

 

Oxygen,

Thought I'd take some time out and explain our views. Thanks for the pointer on the thread thing, I'll only paste relevant quotes from now on.

Quote:

As for the question, if God will only let us into heaven if we love Jesus, then that's a conditional love and I'll have no part of it. If God picked 300,000 people to go to heaven and I was among those, I'd refuse and let someone in who wanted to go. There's too much work here to be done for me to abandon ship like that.

Yes that is a conditional love, that was given unconditionally. You see we have all fallen short of God (whoever or whatever you make him out to be), He is holy, and that is a term that is so loosely used that we don't even know the true meaning of it.

Being holy means that sin or wrong or selfishness or whatever you may wish to call it can not stand in his presence. There are a number of posts that take exception with God for so called murdering or destroying people and places, but there are reasons. Do I understand them all? No, I don't. All I know is that when the evil becomes so great and there is a risk of it spreading throughout creation because of creations free will to accept it then God acts out of His sovereign right to protect creation from itself, from its own eternal destruction. God knew all this and as an act of unconditional love he gave Himself through the Son and by the power of the Holy Spirit as a final sacrifice to cover the sin of man. To understand the relevance of this you need to understand what this represented. The Jews had many sacrifices from doves to lambs to oxen and bulls, each one represented a sacrifice for a specific purpose and each sacrifice needed to be perfect and without fault. Essentially however the purpose was the same, the spilling of blood which is the life of creation for the atoning and covering of sin.

So how was God going to give Himself?

John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.
6 There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light.
9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

We as Christians believe that the Word is the Bible (you know my thoughts on this book from overview) and that Jesus was the Word made flesh that dwelt amongst us. We also believe that the Word being with God and being God, this is where the concept of the Divine Trinity comes from. The above verses also speak about all things being created through the Word and nothing can exist without Him.

So this was the plan, "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" "Full of GRACE and TRUTH"

In other words God so loved the world that He gave His only Son as a sacrifice for the sins of mankind. Now it should become clear to you why the truth of the Bible, the authenticity of Jesus existence and the fact of the resurrection are so strongly contested by us. Our whole faith hinges on it.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

God gave His all as a free gift of salvation, He intended that none should perish but that all should live, that is why He has written the name of every individual in the book of life, its an act of faith. But we as mankind have a will of our own, we either choose the gift or reject the gift and by doing so reject the creator. Our faith was not meant to be a complex discussion about theological dogma, philosophical ideas or scientific proof. It was a gift of unconditional love that people either accept or reject.

Oxygen, my earnest hope is that I have been able to clarify the conditional love view, my love for Him is unconditional because He first loved me. Its not a love that's a romantic type love its what's called in the Greek agape love, its the word that's used in the bible when describing Gods love towards man. Its a love that I didn't recognise until I came to the understanding that I had fall short, that my best works were like dirty rags in His Holy presence. Its something that only the Spirit of God can reveal to us, no amount of discussion or debate will ever make it a reality until we open out heart and let God speak.

Perhaps that explains why we stick to our guns and come across as pig headed bigots sometimes, we don't want anyone to miss out on what we have found in Him.

Take care - H2o

 

DAN: 12 1-2
"At that time Michael, the great prince will arise.There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people everyone whose name is found written in the book will be saved."

This is an extract from DANIEL,where'someone who looked like a man' is enlightening Daniel on the end times in a vision.
It mentions names written in a book who will be saved - it is the old testament.

It is interesting that Daniels visions crop up again in Revelations but are now altered and attributed to John!

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

This is like saying "It's a switched that's turned on, but it's turned off." This sort of contradiction is one of those mystical, spooky, "You-can't-understand-this-with-your-mere-mortal-mind" statements that tells me that even the most faithful have no idea what's going on. I can't swallow this sort of dogma. It sounds like so much snake-oil.

 

Our minds are futile to Gods, our ways are not his. Sometimes trying to understand every statement in the Bible is exhausting, it dosen't make sense. But when you ask the Holy Spirit who searches all things, comes to reveal truth to our heart and soul, to help you understand, to show you what the scripture means then through truth comes alive in your spirit its like the words that made no sense suddenly come alive in your spirit..

 

Oxygen,

It MIGHT help to look at unconditional love this way:

There is a parent who loves his children unconditionally. He has sacrificed his entire life for them, not because he had to but, because he loves them. He has taught his children right from wrong, set a good example for them and has prepared them well to go out into the world on their own. He has shown them, by example during the time that they lived together, how to live in right relationships through love.

When the children were growing up, this parent cautioned them to stay away from the tempatation of certain evils... let's use illegal drugs as an example. He stressed the importance of remaining drug free. The children were taught that the use of illegal drugs could cause chaos in their lives and the lives of others and that indulging in such is not acceptable to their father and not welcome in his drug-free home. The children are well aware that their father loves "them" more than anything but at the same time, they know that he does not tolerate "drugs" in his home.

When growing up, some of the children heed their father's warning. Others succumb to the temptation and become drug addicts, thereby effectively destroying their own lives. The father does everything he can to help save his children from the ravages of drugs. He offers his life savings to send them through drug rehab. Some of them accept his offer and go through a drug rehab program while others reject his offer and continue to use illegal drugs.

Once they are grown and out on their own, their father's offer for salvation from drugs still stands. They all understand that their father loves them unconditionally and that "they" are always welcome in his home "provided" that they do not show up under the influence of or in the possession of illegal drugs.

If, when it is time to go home for the holidays, some of this man's children show up at their father's home under the influence or in possession of illegal drugs, the father will turn them away. Does he do this because he no longer loves them? No. He still loves them unconditionally, however, his home is a drug-free home and he cannot accept them into his home while they are under the influence of or in possession of illegal drugs. Since they did not accept his offer for salvation from drugs, there is no chance for them to be with their father for the holidays.

And so it is with God, His children, the kingdom of heaven and sin. God loves us unconditionally. He has sacrificed his life for us, not because he had to but, because he loves us. He has taught us right from wrong. He set a good example for us while he dwelled with us in the flesh. He has given us all the information we need and has prepared us well to live in right relationships through love.

God has cautioned us to stay away from the tempatation of sin. He stressed the importance of remaining sin free. God has taught us that sin causes chaos in our lives and the lives of others and that indulging in such is not acceptable to Him in his sin-free kingdom. We are well aware that God loves "us" more than anything but at the same time, we know that He does not tolerate "sin" in the kingdom of heaven.

Some of us heed God's warning. Others succumb to the temptation and remain active sinners, thereby effectively destroying our own lives. God has done everything he can to help save his children from the ravages of sin. He has offered His life for our salvation. Some of us accept God's offer of salvation while others reject His offer and continue to lead actively sinful lives.

God's offer for salvation from sin still stands. We all can understand that God loves us unconditionally and that "we" are all welcome in His kingdom "provided" that we show up in a sin-free condition. The only way to do this is to accept God's gift of salvation from sin.

When it is time for us to go home to God, some of us will show up at heaven's door under the influence or in possession of sin and God will turn us away. Does he do this because he no longer loves us? No. He still loves us unconditionally, however, God's kingdom is a sin-free one and He cannot accept us into His kingdom while we are under the influence of or in possession of sin. If we do not accept God's offer of salvation from sin, there is no chance for us to be with Him for all eternity.

As much as He loves us, God cannot be with sin... In the absence of salvation, our state of sin at the time of our death would separate us from Him for all eternity.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 19, 2000).]

 

H-Kon--

Such a question indeed. Stay tuned. (Fair, fun, and excellent Q, though.)

* * * * *

Tab--

At the very beginning of Church history (please note that I bear no sinister attachments to the word "Church" for the purposes of this post) Christian regard for Judaism seemed to be politically driven; for a church of God's mercy, the Apostolic Fathers were very critical of Judaic form. The "Epistle of Barnabas" even goes so far as to present Christians as a new breed of human, a reflection of which is found in Nietzche. Though not all early writers agreed on the degree to which formal Judaic ritual fit into Christianity, we can note at least one thing: Clement and Ignatius, in advising about Judaic ritual, felt that such rituals distracted the Christian from his/her focus on God. Barnabas--who went so far as to claim that Judaic circumcision was offensive to God because the Lord had "circumcised our hearts"--and Justin Martyr (Epistle to Diognetus) offered more judgemental terms. In fact, we might look at it in such a light that Clement and Ignatius, who were addressing specific congregations, and sometimes specific people within those congregations, so that they were addressing specific reasons for specific causes. But Barnabas and Justin, it seems, wrote to create political space 'twixt Christians and Jews. This, I think, is apparent in the tone of these two works. Sum total ... I think the Jews may be excluded from the Christian salvation, at least according to cornerstone ideas within the Church structure. Do any of these numbers occur in Revelations? I thought at some point there was an accounting of who went and who stayed. (I'll look for this, though I don't keep a Bible in this desk.) In that light, what then of the rest of the Revelation ... but, to be honest, I'd rather wait on that idea until I've found my citation.

But I've burned my spare time without getting to the topic question ... thanx, though. I'll get back to it shortly.

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

thanx,
Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

 

Truestory--

"He offers his life savings to send them through drug rehab."

While there are several issues active here that we've failed to resolve, and, while I'm willing to leave them that way since we know we won't come to terms on them, I only have one question, which I think runs the danger of corrupting your example.

So how big IS God's savings accout?

I understand the rest of the illustration ... but I was under the impression that such factors in one's moral decision-making as financial resources were not among those that God considers in His unconditional love.

That modifies the value of that process, but only slightly. The difference between a practical stake and the theoretic extreme. If I had God's alleged power, at no time would I say, "I can't afford it." At no time would I have to. And that's something the father has to deal with, and the Father does not.

Just curious.

--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")

 

Yes, tiassa,

Given the limits of our human experience it is always difficult to draw accurate analogies to God's unconditional love using a human example and I struggled a bit with this issue... I thought about perhaps having the father give the ultimate sacrifice of his life via the bullet of a drug dealer or something like that but, then, with him would have gone the rest of the analogy of the children coming home. So, I chose what some might consider a great sacrifice. In no way did I mean to imply that money was important to God... it is not. This man gave his "all" for his children without actually having to die in the analogy.

I knew at the outset that I could never produce a perfect analogy... However, I'm happy you got the drift of the main message of God's unconditional love for us.

Yes, His resources are limitless. God has given you life. He has given you instruction on how to live that life in right relationships through love. He has prepared an eternal sin-free home for you. He has sacrificed His own life in the flesh so that your sins would be forgiven (and to better convey the message that it is not this life that is most important). He resurrected so that you could see that there was a life beyond this in His kingdom. He has told you that you must be free from sin in order to dwell with Him for all eternity in His sin-free kingdom. He has offered to you the gift of salvation through the sacrifice of His own flesh. He has given you the free-will to choose your own path. Although God's resources are not limited, the ONE thing that you MUST do for yourself is to accept His gift of salvation, so that you can enter His sin-free home, "if" you wish to spend eternity with Him.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited January 18, 2000).]

 

Truestory--

Thank you for clarifying your faith; I just needed that piece to put the developing mosaic of your expressions into the proper context.

--Tiassa

------------------
Take a side you say, it's black and gray. And all the hunters take the hunted merrily out to play. We are one, you say, but who are you? You're all too busy reaping in the things you never sown. And this beast must go on and on and on .... Nobody gives a damn. (Floater; "Beast")