When do you get a soul? & related questions.

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Dinosaur, May 31, 2009.

  1. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    which means it operates in a specific manner
    belief in a soul doesn't change the manner that empiricism operates any more than a disbelief in a soul
    :shrug:

    So you agree that post-dated rain cheques have no place in the (gredible) representation of empiricism?
    I'm still not clear where you stand on

    If you think there is some element that death takes away that cannot be materially replicated you are subscribing to something else other than material reductionism


    IOW the rational implications of a reductionist world view is that death can be over-ridden by material replication.

    Side stepping it by trying to preempt my position on the subject doesn't clarify yours.
    a rational conclusion is always based on premises

    In this case, the premises for your argument are lodged in material reductionism (so its more a case of "if/then")
    sure

    that's why there is the argument that there is a means and way to transcendental knowledge outside of diametrical supposition (or if you're savvy with eastern philosophy, that's why there are other pramanas - or authorities of knowledge - aside from abhava - or non-existence )

    Hence rationality is inherently related to experience ..... so it speaks more of subjectivity than any ontological absolute (IOW, ironically, you take the same tact that you criticize when you say "the "non-material" doesn't exist" ..... it might be true to say you have no experience of it .... whether your experience is sufficient to contextualize the opinions of all others is a subject of debate ....)


    So I guess I can now take the italics out of my question to you

    why would you think that an issue of replication is beyond the material reductionist paradigm (aside from the infamous "because we don't have the technology yet") ....... unless of course you are subscribing to something other than material reductionism
     
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  3. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    and your inability to clarify your opinion within any body of any anecdoted work doesn't help you any either ....



    I guess that must make death a pretty unique phenomena ..... since our common experience is that effects happen after a cause
    :m:
     
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    I'm saying your comments on post-dated rain cheques are a red-herring and irrelevant.
    In theory you are correct. However there are practical limitations to what can be replicated. Scientific endeavours are striving to reduce those limitations, but they still exist nonetheless.
    But practical limitations is not evidence of, nor in any way a rational argument for, something non-material.
    It is a rational argument for "we do not know yet" rather than jumping on something to bridge the gap.

    And we're still waiting for evidence (i.e. knowledge) of something that is non-material.

    But it is a fallacious argument given that the only "knowledge" it reaches is that which one is required to believe in the first instance in order to achieve that knowledge. "Believe to believe". "Believe in God and he will reveal himself" etc.

    Experience IS a material interaction - and you have not yet demonstrated, nor provided a theory, as to how non-material can interact with material - without first discarding the laws of physics, or begging the question.

    As stated, it's a matter of practical ability over theory. Hence the infamous "because we don't have the technology yet".

    If you feel that this makes science uncredible and part of why you are so willing to bridge the gap with the "non-material" then you are not being rational.
     
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  7. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    If the material would be an established fact, then doctors, researchers and investigators of various kinds (from nutritionists to crime scene investigators to historians), counselors and many more would have very little work.

    In practice, in each specific case, the material is a fact that yet needs to be established.
    For example, if a particular disease in a particular patient would be an "established fact", then there would be no need to run tests and figure out what the precise diagnosis is. But the everyday reality of treating people who have pains and other health ailments says otherwise.

    "The material is an established fact" is a theoretical proposition, but each specific application of this proposition takes more or less work - so in this sense, the material is something that yet needs to be established as fact.
     
  8. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    lol!!
    You are joking, right??

    Matter exists.
    This is fact.
    Only the nature of the matter requires investigation.


    You are confusing investigations into the nature of the material with investigations of whether or not it is material or non-material.

    The former is what everyone you mention does.
    The latter is left for those trying to demonstrate the existence of "soul".


    Certainly one could claim the existence of "non-material" things to be a theory / hypothesis / concept... but if so they are unscientific due to unfalsifiability.
     
  9. Saquist Banned Banned

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    According to the ancient Hebrews from which Judeo-Christians beliefs are rooted from...

    Soul or ne'phesh (Hebrew) means litterall; that which breathes. signifying an animated being and is applicable equally to nonhuman beings. (animals)

    According to the new Catholic Encyclopedia (1967) Vol. XIII pp. 449,450
    "It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being."

    According to the Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564
    "The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture."

    Biblically:
    a.The soul dies.
    b.Animals are souls.
    c.The end of man and animal is the same.
    d. When the man dies the thoughts perish
    e. The words immortal and soul never appear together or in reference to human beings to one another anywhere in the either the Aramaic or Christian Greek.
     
  10. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    perhaps I might be inclined to agree with you ... except that you play the "post dated rain cheque" in your very next paragraph.

    Post dated rain cheques have no place in establishing the credibility of empirical claims.

    True or False?

    You don't say.

    That's why it is evidenced by means outside of empiricism.

    sure

    for as long as one accepts empiricism as having a monopoly on all knowable claims.
    Do you see the thick-headedness of the claim "An examination with the mind and senses has not revealed anything beyond the mind and senses. Therefore nothing exists beyond the mind and senses"?
    All pedagogical models are initiated at the point of faith.
    If you don't agree, feel free to indicate one that doesn't.
    Experience is far from being reduced to physics.
    If you disagree, please explain (solely within the language of physics) why a mother crocodile, with jaws that are capable of snapping a buffalo's bone, cradles her eggs in her mouth and helps them hatch by gently rubbing them.

    NB - anything that is not peer reviewed and empirical in your explanation can be rejected at the onset
    I look forward to getting a T or F

    It doesn't make science non-credible.
    Its simply how science does and doesn't operate.

    If it was otherwise, a person could receive a nobel prize for something they haven't even achieved yet
    :shrug:
     
  11. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    15,058
    If only the nature of matter would be so easy to investigate ... especially given the norm that any finding must be falsifiable ...

    I wonder what, for example, crime scene investigators, lawyers and victims think about the demand for falsifiability ...


    I think this is a false dichotomy.

    At the onset of an investigation, we don't know what our findings will be. So when we set out to investigate something, it is not yet clear whether the results of investigation will reveal that our object of investigation is about the nature of the material or something else.

    Unless of course we have defined at the onset in what range (whether in the range of "nature of the material" or in the range of "material vs. non-material") we will look for and accept results.
    In which case, it is only fair that we admit that we have set ourselves such limitations in advance.


    So?
     
  12. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Your reasoning seems to presume that knowledge of God cannot go beyond faith and expectation; that when it comes to knowledge of God, expectation and realization/experience are the same.

    Even just in principle, to presume that expectation and realization/experience (of anything) are the same, is to presume omniscience.

    Sure, there is a considerable element of psychological safety in presuming that expectation and realization will be the same (or that realization will be better than expectation). People do that all the time, especially now in holiday season when they go on vacations.


    I have some expectation of what a particular dish will taste. But once I prepare it and eat it, this has always been different than what I expected it to be.
     
  13. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    On issues of rationality, yes - but you are trying to apply them to actual claims.

    Yet you can not produce any such evidence. :shrug:

    Faith as in "subconscious assessment of probability based on previous evidence" rather than blind-faith, sure. So, for your pedagogical model - where is the previous evidence?

    False dilemma, I'm afraid LG, as you seem to be under the misconception that if I can't provide what you require then I must be wrong.

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    Then why suggest that it raises issues on the credibility of science?
     
  14. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Fallacious.
    Those people only need to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" to a court of law. This is very different from science.

    Experience tends to provide us with assumptions.

    Wow - every time I hear of court cases, the defense lawyer is always playing the "God did it", or the "it was a non-material thing" card. And then the prosecutor always comes back with "But your Honour, we set ourselves the limitations of dealing only with matter, not with non-matter!"

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  15. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Sarkus

    and you're not?

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    If one falls short of the methodology, how do you propose one evidences it to another?

    (IOW any half reasonable examination of evidence begins at the point of "what is the subject being investigated" followed by "what are the means of investigating it" .... and finally .... "what is the evidence".)
    no living entity is without previous experience
    no living entity can begin to learn anything without approaching an issue of faith ( or "subconscious assessment of probability based on previous evidence", if you prefer)

    To ridicule a claim of knowledge simply because it involves an element of such faith is to ridicule the learning process
    :shrug:
    On the contrary, you made the claim

    Experience IS a material interaction (with the further detail that physics is the language of reality)

    I'm just explaining the extent of the task you have set yourself ....
    Its your addition to the process of science which lacks credibility.

    Empiricism has a particular methodology which distinguishes itself from post dated rain cheques, correlation = causation and the like)

    If it was otherwise, a person could receive a nobel prize for something they haven't even achieved yet
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2009
  16. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    15,396
    -=- -=-

    So

    AOO + HA = T

    -=- -=-
     
  17. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    Being unable to distinguish fantasy from fact degrades your ability to reason effectively.

    Actually that is a false dilemma. You can be a materialist without being a material reductionist. In other words everything has a material basis, but not everything which comes of that can be explained interms of that material basis. For example, the meaning of a letter is not carried in a description of its atomic structure even though the letter is only composed of atoms.

    You really ought to at least have a clue about material reductionism before trying to pull crap out of your ass like that. There actually are legitimate issues with material reductionism but you are just polluting the dialog.

    No a formal logical conclusion is based on premises. Rationality is more general and can be based on other things as well, such as observation.

    Everything is inherantly related to experience.

    Hence the term "non-material."
     
  18. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    4,207
    Whatever.


    not particularly.

    Got a mouse in your pocket?

    Death by thermal nuclear device is fairly instantaneous.

    Death by heart failure is a cascade of events which if reversed soon enough, can be recovered from because it takes a person several minutes to actually expire.

    The heart stops, oxygen in the local blood supply is exhausted, the nerves release compounds at first to try and protect themselves, this stage lasts about 6 min, then the nerves go into a hyperactive state and fairly quickly burn themselves out. The rest of the body cells continue to die as they run out of oxygen. Most of them will begin self destructing as well as the cells around them die creating a cascade effect.

    This can go on for quite some time before some organs are irrecoverable, resulting in an unfortunate gray area where the body can be revived but the brain has already destroyed itself. Eventually though even the rest of the body is dead, the cells release enzymes and oxidizing agents which break themselves down and no amount of reviving can help.

    This is the basic structure for most normal deaths, though on occasion the steps get shuffled. Sepsis is when a bacteria triggers the self destruct cascade and the cells of the body self destruct first.
     
  19. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    whether it is slowly or quickly, the moment that distinguishes death from life remains evasive to the reductionist paradigm.

    If it was otherwise, the wiki page you referenced for my edification wouldn't have a sub-category dealing with problems of definition.



    Do you want me to explain why all this misses the point or do you want to read the wiki page about death?
     
  20. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    belief in a soul doesn't change the manner that empiricism operates any more than a disbelief in a soul

    ( ... just as editing my responses down to different forms doesn't change the manner that empiricism does or doesn't function)
    :shrug:


    then one would be subscribing to the notion that the fundamentals of our abstract thought (ie the mind) is not materially reducible (and hence one wouldn't be a material reductionist)



    duh

    thus observation would be one of the premises


    issues ensue however when you extrapolate your experience as sufficient to contextualize the experience of all others .......



    I take it you missed the implications of me placing it in quotation marks .....
     
  21. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Quick question, LG, as you seem to be keen to argue against material reductionism... who in this thread has actually confirmed that they are a material reductionist?
    And please support your answer with a link / quote to their confirmation, please.
     
  22. lightgigantic Banned Banned

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    Cris does in an obvious fashion

    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2301159&postcount=227

    Others, like yourself, tend to be a bit more indirect
    http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2309342&postcount=305

    But actually, as it pertains to this thread, it gets back to an issue with whether the phenomena of life being materially reducible also holds that death is materially reducible.

    I think it was swarm who kicked up a stink about this somewhere earlier on.
     

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