When Is Jesus Coming?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by §outh§tar, Sep 23, 2004.

  1. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    No but I read 'Plop, the owl who was afraid of the dark', if it's any consolation.
     
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  3. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    No, it is not enough....

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  5. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    c20H25N3o: Are you too calling me a liar?
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    M*W: Are you a little insecure or just getting paranoid?
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    c20H25N3o: I tell you I know Jesus by the Holy Spirit first which I received upon calling on the name of a being that I did not know but had but a mustard seed of faith that He would answer.
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    M*W: I believe you 'know' Jesus by whatever means you can think of, but Jesus doesn't know you. That's the big difference.
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    c20H25N3o: Upon doing so a great Spirit descended upon me and I came to know Jesus by that Spirit first, things were revealed to me that I could not even put into English very well.
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    M*W: If I were you, I would be very careful about praying for 'spirits to descend upon you.' A lot of people in locked rubber rooms believe spirits have descended upon them, too.
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    c20H25N3o: I speak in tongues that reveal God's mind and heart and that which I hear I know is my God because of the love that He has for me.
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    M*W: Another ticket to get into that rubber room. In psychiatric terms, it's called glossalalia, and it happens frequently in schizophrenics prior to a state of catatonia, which could also explain your paranoia. This also sounds like borderline homosexual desires.
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    c20H25N3o: You want to pin God down over the text in the bible but He laughs at your folly because you do not come to Him in humility. You do not come to Him in humility because you do not want to lose your life. You want to save your own life. You refuse His help and say to yourselves "Huh, Jesus nothing! I am who I am - Jesus is nothing"
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    M*W: You contradict yourself here, because after all, your Bible was written by allegedly 'inspired-by-God' authors. I don't believe anyone here on sciforums is trying to 'pin God down over the text in the bible,' because we realize that this is not possible, especially in the case of the NT, where Paul, who was definitely NOT inspired by God except in his own mind, wrote the lies and contradictions. How does any living or dead human being know for sure what happens after we die? All we do know for sure is that this life is all we've got. Like I've told you already, I used to believe in Jesus and pray to Jesus and live for Jesus and would die for Jesus, but I realized just how insane this thinking was. Your belief in Jesus may very well work to satiate your vacuum of 'neediness,' but you are really all you've got. Humility has nothing to do with anything. Needy people are usually humble, because they put themselves in that position, which is very unhealthy emotionally. Needy people are rarely ever fulfilled. There are even rich 'needy' people. The difference is why would anyone allow him or herself to become 'needy' for whatever it is that floats their boat.
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    c20H25N3o: How right Jesus was when He refered to Himself as the Stumbling block, the corner stone that men would reject. The stone that men would call insignificant but that which would turn out to be the most important of all.
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    M*W: I don't think you're listening or reading our posts. Again, these were not Jesus' words at all. They were Paul's. No one knows what Jesus may have said, since he wrote NOTHING.
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    c20H25N3o: Jesus is for you, not against you. If you know this and still choose to reject Him you can bang on all you like about your life and such, you are nothing but a wisp of smoke from a flame that has long since died.
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    M*W: This is what YOU believe because of your 'needy' state of mind. Furthermore, if Jesus HAD actually said something like this, that is not what he was about, but then it was Paul who wrote 'turn the other cheek.' How can anyone 'reject' the concept of Jesus-is-God when they don't believe any god exists? You are so judgmental with your beliefs in christianity! If Jesus were God, he'd be mighty pissed at you right now!
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    c20H25N3o: Jesus is the fire in our hearts, the love that binds us together. Without Him you would be 'nothing'. Turn over your hearts and let them by ruled by Him who is 'love'.
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    M*W: I, too, have had that 'fire' in my heart, and I recommend a strong anti-acid pill. I don't see any 'love' binding us together, but it is YOUR emotional neediness that compels you to preach the way you do. Read the statistics if you don't believe me -- 75% of the world's population don't believe in Jesus. How can they ALL be wrong? Remember, it wasn't Jesus who said anything, it was primarily Paul, who's name literally means 'deceiver' if you look it up. The human animal has the emotional ability to experience love -- god or no god.
     
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  7. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    Lets examine my emotional neediness

    I have a very good job like you and support a family comprising of four children ages 11 and down. I have a son and three daughters whom I love more than life itself. My wife of 12 years is a beautiful princess who puts up with all of us although she can get a bit grumpy in the mornings

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    I see God in our relationships. I see the ideas and values that Jesus spoke of in our own lives. It is through the experiences of my life that He is revealed to me. I have come to know Jesus not on my own strength but because of what He has shown me about Himself. Call me mad, call me insane tell me I'm off my head. It wont change a thing. As I have said before on these forums, "I am a prisoner in Christ" but know that it is for my security that I am in chains, that I may not be seperated from Him.
     
  8. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    What's wrong with just thanking my parents for doing everything they could to ensure I have a successful life? Why must the people who actually make the effort be ignored in favour of a guy who hides in the clouds?

    When I've got flu, malaria or some other serious illness, then we can thank god for creating flies just so I would suffer needlessly, but why involve him for my successes, when all the thanks and praise should be given to my parents/friends?

    Thank god for that!

    This is what I find funny with you folk. If someone does something outstanding, or succeeds you claim it's all gods work, but when they're a tragic failure, god goes back into hiding and you blame humanity instead. Why not just lump it all on god? After all, it was gods plan to make this guy a fuck up, and it was gods plan to make me a millionaire to ensure I never get into heaven. Either way, and regardless to the issue, we might aswell just point skyward.

    How amusing it is that the uneducated forget that it doesn't matter what country they're in, they are guaranteed to be the non-stop victims of gods little army. From birth when you get croup, measles, mumps, chicken pocks, cradle cap, whooping cough, rhubella and so on before you're even old enough to stand up. Is this by the "grace" and love of your supreme being? What comes next? Colds, flu, polio, and perhaps a billlion other things I could mention that all come by the grace of your beloved. And how many deaths would it take? How many annihilations of the first born do you require? How many disgustingly vicious diseases and illnesse must your "all-loving" sky daddy inflict upon everyone regardless of how religious they are or not. These things attack and kill without discrimination. They do not care if you're rich or poor, they do not give a shit whether you accept jesus or not. A fly will travel from an atheists bowl of soup, and land on a christians bowl of soup - infecting him with a million viruses that exist for one purpose alone - the killing of all that lives.

    Oh the mercy, oh the joy.

    But while it might be by gods grace that I live in a rich country, (although personally I'd say it has more to do with my parents), whos "grace" is it by for the people who do live in a country rife with pestilence etc?

    As I mentioned above, you're all so swift to mention gods love and grace when it comes down to the niceties, but the minute things turn sour where does your god vanish to? Once more he scurries away like a frightened mouse, hiding in the safety of the shadows, protected by the incompetent.

    Ignore those in Africa starving, dying of a million diseases that they cannot cure. While god sits around on his golden throne doing sweet bugger all about it, humanity tries it's hardest to make their lives better. god does nothing, man does everything, and you dare sit there and talk about grace while looking skyward?

    Eventually mankind shall cure the problems in third world countries. Undoubtedly, the incompetents will state that "it is by the grace of god", when in actual fact it would have nothing whatsoever to do with the one Mark Twain calls "the slowest mover in the universe".

    He'll sit on his throne of luxury thinking about helping the Africans for the next 10 millenniums. Eventually mankind will beat him to it, and solve the problem while Mr. Slow is still thinking about it. Of course, as is gods way, he'll still try and steal the credit for it.

    The only reason we've even got this far is due to man. I personally doubt gods even awake.

    Well well, I see biology lessons have gone a bit up the spout as of late. From what I gathered, it had to do with penises/vaginas, sperm and eggs.

    Be proud of your incompetence.
     
  9. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    TruthSeeker: Very interesting..... what about the gospels of Luke, John, Matthew and Mark?

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    M*W: TruthSeeker, I so glad to see that you do not have a closed mind and are willing to look for answers. The gospels started being written (70AD to the end of the first century AD) after Paul's epistles which were written between 51AD and 57AD. Paul's writings had a great influence over the gospels, but not the gospel of "John." Current thought is that MM wrote under the pseudonym "John." She is also believed to have written Revelations and the Gospel of Mary Magdalene which was suppressed by the RCC. Luke was Paul's good buddy, but they, too, had a falling out AFTER the gospel of Luke was written. Paul had a really hard time winning friends and influencing his peers.
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    TruthSeeker: Jesus? Married? Where did you read that? That may be true.
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    M*W: Let me give you a short bibliography:

    Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Secret Genealogy of Jesus, by Laurence Gardner

    Holy Blood, Holy Grail, by Michael Baigent, et al.

    Realm of the Ring Lords, by Laurence Gardner

    Genesis of the Grail Kings, by Laurence Gardner

    The Woman with the Alabaster Jar, by Margaret Starbird (I think)

    Key to the Sacred Pattern, by Henry Lincoln

    The Tomb of God, by Paul Schellenburger, et al.

    Rex Deus, by Marilyn Hopkins, et al.

    The Hiram Key, by Christopher Knight, et al.

    Lost Secrets of the Sacred Ark, by Laurence Gardner

    Jesus: Last of the Pharaohs, by Ralph Ellis.

    Jesus and the Lost Goddess: The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians, by Timothy Freke, et al.

    Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ, by Alvar Ellegard

    Mary: The Unauthorized Biography, by Michael Jordan

    The Gospel of Mary Magdalene, by Jean-Yves LeLoup

    The Templar Revelation: Secret Guardians of the True Identity of Christ, by Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince

    Jesus: The Evidence, by Ian Wilson

    Goddess in the Gospels, by Margaret Starbird

    This will at least get you started, then there is always the Internet.
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    TruthSeeker: But why do you think those are right? and could you provide a link for them, please?

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    M*W: Try:

    http
    http http

    http http

    there's plenty more sites.
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    TruthSeeker: I don't think your last statement is true.... but here's what I think about the rest...

    At first, the church did seem to be going on the right track. A lot of Paul's scriptures seem to be very valued by the catholic church. This is the same church that killed lots of people in the Inquisition and the Crusades. So it seems that what you are saying actually makes sense! Altough... I don't think the present Pope is evil.... but the next one might very well be...
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    M*W: I don't believe Pope John Paul II is an evil man. In fact, there may have been many pious popes, but some of the others were humanly evil, I believe, especially during the Dark Ages and all the bloodshed caused by religious superiority. The Church WAS the State!
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    TruthSeeker: But... since you say that Paul is the antichrist, could you tell me what are the true teachings of Jesus?

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    M*W: In all honesty, the only truth I now believe can only be attributed to what MM has written. She supposedly actually knew Jesus personally and likely was his wife and the mother of his children. That's probably why the Church made concerted effort to suppress hers and other's writings.

    The Bible was either written in code words or has been translated in code words. I just cannot see Paul having written anything symbolic or coded. On the one hand, if the Bible was 'inspired' by God, I see no logical reason for the writers of the Bible to have written it in certain recurring code words. On the other hand, even the name 'Mary Magdalene' could be code words for 'tower,' 'bitter woman,' 'temple prostitute,' or 'a person from the town of Magdal'. The seven demons Jesus was to have cast out of MM, could just be more code words meaning 'the seven seas,' or 'demon' could simply mean 'of the world.' After all, Jesus and his troops were called 'fishers of men.' I still have a faint belief that Jesus did exist but only because MM's bones were found in France, so Jesus wouldn't be far behind her. Now, if for some reason MM is symbolic of someone or something else, and she wasn't a living, breathing woman, then there is no way Jesus could have existed either. That would make them both just myths. But, if Jesus did exist, he was a married Rabbi with children, and this is who and what I believe him to be. There is also the possibility that 'Peter' was a code name for 'rock,' or it could simply mean 'of the world' or 'Godly.' There are just too many code words used in both the Old and NT. (Don't confuse this with same coding used in the book, The Bible Code). The 'holy grail,' 'san greal' or 'sang real,' is symbolic of MM's womb that carried the 'blood of Jesus.'

    Also, I want to mention that in the greatest paintings of Mary, Joseph and Baby Jesus, are mistitled in most of the museums and art galleries I've visited. Christians see the holy couple as Mary, Joseph and Baby Jesus, but in reality, they are actually NOT Mother Mary and Joseph and Baby Jesus, but Jesus, MM and their children, and possibly Joseph of Arimathea is the older man in the paintings. So many of the ancient artists attempted to depict the truth about the holy family, like da Vinci (in the church in Fiorenza), Michelangelo (in the Sistine Chapel), Donnatella (sp?), and Botticceli (sp?). There are other artists later on down the road like Nicolas Pouissin (in the Louvre) and David Teniers (in the British Museum) that have used their media to bring the truth about Jesus and his family to the masses! There are other researchers who believe Jesus had a twin brother (possibly Thomas Didymus -- 'the twin').
     
  10. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    4,832
    Yep.
     
  11. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    I know you are you said you are! What am I?

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  12. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Does that really make the other Gospels unreliable?
    Where in the gospels it is said that Jesus is God? And doesn't the gospel of John say that Jesus is God?

    9I think you will need to refer to some scriptures here....

    Oh... I meant links to the lost gospels...

    .....? Who was Jesus' mother again?

    What do you mean by "code words"? Do you mean metaphors and allegories?
    That still doesn't say anything about Jesus' teachings.

    Let me give you an example. Jesus said: "love one another". That's a teaching.
     
  13. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    Excluding the gnostic gospel that bears her name, there is evidence that Mary Magdalene lived as an hermet, perhaps traveling with John and Mary, the mother of Jesus. Neither gnostic nor eastern Church records suggest she was ever married to Jesus; only the gnostic gospel mentions her kissing Jesus, on the cheek, hand, we do not know.

    Furthermore, for you to prove your claim, assuming you believe the gnostic gospel enough to believe Mary Magdalene, Jesus's wife, the gospel of John would have to be shown to be the same as the gnostic gospel, both in style and in theology. But certainly this is not the case.
     
  14. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    That is the stupidest rebuttal you have ever made, okinrus.

    Why don't you also prove that Jesus rose on the same day?

    WHAT? What's that I hear about your faith is based on speculation that the NT accounts are true?
     
  15. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    I'm not following what you've said.

    There is no contradiction with Jesus' resurrection, and therefore it may believed by faith. (Note that all Christians will concede this point as it's evident to the point of doctrine. Nothing new here.)

    Now the contradiction is in what M*W is saying(if she bases Mary Magdalene's marriage on a conjectual leap from a gnostic gospel), because the gnostic writing and the gospel of John are radically different. Both couldn't be created by the same author, and therefore one of them has to be a forgery. All I'm interested in is which book M*W believes is the forgery.
     
  16. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    8,346
    okinrus: Excluding the gnostic gospel that bears her name, there is evidence that Mary Magdalene lived as an hermet, perhaps traveling with John and Mary, the mother of Jesus. Neither gnostic nor eastern Church records suggest she was ever married to Jesus; only the gnostic gospel mentions her kissing Jesus, on the cheek, hand, we do not know.
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    M*W: Yes, I've read that MM was an hermit the Baume cave in France. She traveled with Joseph of Amimathea and possibly Jesus' mother. The Gnostic Gospel of either Philip or Thomas state that "Jesus often kissed her on the mouth."
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    okinrus: Furthermore, for you to prove your claim, assuming you believe the gnostic gospel enough to believe Mary Magdalene, Jesus's wife, the gospel of John would have to be shown to be the same as the gnostic gospel, both in style and in theology. But certainly this is not the case.
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    M*W: Biblical scholars have now decided that The Gospel of John and Revelations bear familiar writing style as does the Gospel of MM, the Beloved Disciple. Consequently, where MM appears in the NT, there also appears "John." I'm still researching MM's connection to John the Baptist, since both their names/titles refer to water,the ocean, the seven seas, MM's home in Bethany, etc.
     
  17. DeeCee Valued Senior Member

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    1,793
    If Jesus Christ were to stand up today
    He'd be gunned down cold by the CIA

    Matt Johnson

    I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him people.
    Dee Cee
     
  18. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    4,832
    I wasn't talking about MW's post, I was referring to your post. It may be believed by faith is simply out of the question since you are believing the words of non-witnesses firstly, secondly you are speculating that the Synoptics are essentially accurate about the resurrection and claiming it is all on "faith". If you are taking it on faith then why don't you take the Quran on faith? Failure to do so only shows unwarranted arbitrariness which is what I was trying to let you know in the first place.
     
  19. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    You are confusing faith with something else. Yes, believers trust the written witnesses. But they also trust the witness of God within them, and, in so doing, they become witnesses.

    No, I'm not. My point, in respect to M*W quotation, was that John's gospel and the gospel of Mary Magdalene have radically different style. Of course, there's an assumption either John's gospel or Mary Magdalen's gospel was not edited. But the kind of editing necessary to change the style of the piece is unlikely.

    I've read the Qur'an, and while some parts are true, other parts are false.

    No, the implicit assumption is true faith requires God to sustain itself. If my faith is good, then it is sustained by God, as all good things are; otherwise, my faith is trust of someone or something not from God. In any case, like how we trust people, or how we trust a building, we often can determine whether something is sturdy and true by our own judgement, and this judgement is by no way arbitrary.

    M*W, John, who traveled through out asia minor, was given the honor of taking care of Jesus' mother. The gospel of Philip does, however, state that Mary Magdalene kissed someone on the mouth.
    <blockquote>
    As for the Wisdom who is called " the barren," she is the mother of the angels. And the companion of the [...] Mary Magdalene. [...] loved her more than all the disciples, and used to kiss her often on her mouth. The rest of the disciples [...]. They said to him "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Savior answered and said to them,"Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness." </blockquote>

    All instances the term "beloved disciple" appears in John's gospel suggest the reference is John. I suggest that you read both books, side by side. The writing style is really different, and the doctrine and emphasis that Mary Magdalene's gospel uses is different from John's gospel. Furthermore, because Mary Magdalene's gospel is called Mary Magdalene's gospel, you must answer why Mary would need a gospel, having already written John's gospel.

    Names and titles don't necessarily mean anything.
     
  20. Gravity Deus Ex Machina Registered Senior Member

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    1,007
    Wow, to be able to make such judgements! Can mere mortals gaze upon your visage without bursting into flame?!

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    Please don't tell me that you know some parts are ''false'' because a *different* book says something else?
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2004
  21. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    4,832
    First of all, the Gospel writers were not "witnesses". Secondly, (even if they were) you simply don't know that the "witness of God" was within them. Are you just going to believe hook, line and sinker that God was with them just because they claim so?


    If you don't believe the Gospels are essentially accurate then why are you even a Christian?

    Unlike the Gospels?

    Just like Mormons, or those who followed Jim Jones? Come now..

    If you believe in the written assumptions of others and claim it is by "faith" you believe then it is by every way arbitrary.
     
  22. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    2,017
    SouthStar/Gravity

    Please...
    In your own words, not using any scripture, tell me why you dont believe there is a God. Please dont point to creation either, in fact please only use your own feelings on the matter if you can.

    Ill do the same of my faith here - no scripture, nothing else

    ready ... deep breath

     
  23. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,832
    I never said I didn't believe there is a God. See the thread 'With a heavy heart..'
     

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