When is lethal force acceptable?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by darksidZz, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

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    It sounds to me like this garage wasn't attached to their house at all, and this guy was OFF DUTY don't try telling me police are never off duty that's nonsense. He had no legal authority to suddenly come on duty simply to defend property. That's outlandish IMO if true. No one else not even doctors can suddenly COME ON duty randomly if some car crash happens without being sued. Plus bringing his female along shows he didn't believe it was serious otherwise why bring her? No I'm afraid it was some sorta outside garage and he just couldn't wait to go have some fun and show off.

    But yea even pretending otherwise he still can't come on duty just because he wants too, and then leave a protective area to an outside garage where he knows there is danger come on. And I bet he stepped in front of their vehicle.
     
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  3. MacGyver1968 Fixin' Shit that Ain't Broke Valued Senior Member

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    The officer didn't do anything that a regular citizen can't do. In Texas, I can place someone under "citizen's arrest". I can also protect my property with lethal force if there is a threat present...according to the "Castle Doctrine". I imagine he took his wife with him so she wouldn't be left alone....or it went like this: "There's someone breaking into the garage...stay here!" "I'm not staying here alone..I'm coming with you!"

    Oh..and doctors can "come on duty" in the event of an accident and be protected from lawsuits. Most states have "Good Samaritan" laws that protect people who try to help in an emergency.
     
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  5. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Actually your wrong about that. The good smariton laws MIGHT not protect medical proffessionals so the ambulance service has a system in place for exactly the situation you describe. As long as you call in and tell them your on scene as soon as possible (even if thats after the event) you clock on duty from the time you arive and you are protected by the work cover insurance and the legal protections paramedics on duty enjoy. If anyone is sued just like any other time your working, its the state government

    Edit to add: and doctors in some states here (and in NSW ever medical proffessional) have a lawful duty to treat ANYONE in distress whether on duty or not, specifically car crashes. Lastly doctors unlike most nurses and paramedics have professional liability insurance on themselves not there employer. Ie they are protected no matter where they are or what capacity they are in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
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  7. aaqucnaona This sentence is a lie Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, and that is to be evaluated before shooting, to ascertain how big a threat the person possesses.
     
  8. darksidZz Valued Senior Member

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    Protecting personal property doesn't give someone the right to kill, the two are very different things. If it's a choice between someone stealing my car or killing them how can anyone justify that!
     
  9. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    Here in Detroit they steal your car AND kill you...often just for fun. Then they drive your car around the city real fast while they get real stoned until they either total it out on another vehicle killing a whole family, drive it into a home ditto, or get in a high speed chase with the police that ends in a shoot - out.

    Just a little sexist there, aren't we?

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    Around here, about 1/2 of the Detroit cops are women, many of whom would take extreme umbrage at that remark.

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    He brought her along because he thought it was serious and he knew that he needed backup to go into the situation. That is how law enforcement works - it would have been remiss of him to have gone in alone. Again, around here the cops are told that they are always on duty, the law requires that they be armed and carry their badge and they are obligated to get involved in a crime or emergency situation. To do otherwise will result in their being disciplined and/or being prosecuted for "dereliction of duty".
     
  10. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    What if they were stealing your car with you in it? Today we have armed thugs stealing a car that's moving in traffic with someone driving it. Then what would you do?
     
  11. Enmos Valued Senior Member

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    If they are armed I'd jump out of the other door

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    If they are not, depending on whether or not I think I can take them, I'd beat them silly.
     
  12. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Im not shocked by the cops actions but i am by the comments made here. We recive proffessional training in dealing with armed offender in my work and the prime principle is "no amount of money is worth your life". Dont met the offenders eyes, follow all there instructions, dont argue or be agressive, get them to leave as quick as possible and lock the doors after them. This is prity much the same traning everyone but maybe cops, security guards and defense personal are given. For the most part its when you dont follow these rules where people get hurt. Unless you run into a sociopath who wants to kill someone most armed robbers just want stuff and stuff can be replaced. Just give it to them and they will go away leaving you safe.
     
  13. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    See, problem that seems to exist around the city near where I live is that the "thing" people like that want... is generally sex and/or drugs... sometimes material goods as well. Sometimes the crimes are committed without even taking anything - there has been a few instances in my lifetime of houses being broken into and the people attacked without ANYTHING being stolen...
     
  14. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    Garages seem to have bad mojo for Chicago cops...

    Chicago Police Officer Fatally Shot Processing Burglary Scene
     
  15. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    And I suppose it's easy to tell the difference between a robber and a sadist? If they are in your house, you have to assume they have the worst intentions. You don't follow their instructions, you flee or fight to the death, because that's probably how you will end up if you obey.
     
  16. Stoniphi obscurely fossiliferous Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. Also, if you go with them, you are dead, likely after being raped and tortured.

    I used to teach self defense classes, and that is one of the most important lessons. If the perp is armed and you aren't going to fight, then run as fast as you can. They won't throw away a knife (if they did it most likely wouldn't stick you as most knives are not balanced for throwing) and most people with guns can't hit anything more than a few feet away.

    We also advise against conspicuous displays of wealth - like dripping in jewelry or driving a fancy car - and stay keenly aware of your surroundings. I sometimes deliver items of extremely high value that do not belong to me and are uninsured in transit. I drive an inconspicuous vehicle, dress in old jeans, worn sweatshirt and coat (Carhart) and am constantly looking around to be keenly aware of my surroundings. I also go well armed. I have never had any trouble with anyone, despite that I go some pretty scary places sometimes. I do not look like a victim, nor do I appear to have any wealth about my person - someone of no particular importance, as it were.

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    If you meet the bad person's eyes before anything happens, he will know that you are aware and will likely choose another victim that is less attentive. The element of surprise is part of the criminals repertoire, and one that he/she will not willingly give up. When they choose to invade your home they know full well that it may cost them their life if/when they get caught there. They choose to go ahead and do that anyway, accepting the potential consequences of their actions. Something to think about before you get real cooperative with them.
     
  17. Search & Destroy Take one bite at a time Moderator

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    The law tells you to do that for very general reasons. As an individual I would never assume the guy breaking into my house just wants a few bucks. That is just so naive it's hard to comprehend anyone taking that stance. I lol'd imagining you with a girlfriend just now.

    "Someone's trying to break in!"
    "It's ok honey, we'll just give him our stuff and we'll be safe"
     
  18. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    In many jurisdictions citizens are allowed to use lethal force to protect their property, which often includes preventing someone from entering their premises with the clear intention to steal or destroy their property.

    In the case of a mugging, where the perpetrator is using physical force in an attempt to take your purse, wallet, computer, etc., out of your own hands, you are generally allowed to use lethal force to stop him.

    As for your car, given the dismal financial situation which you so often brag about to us, I'm sure you drive a 1972 Datsun. Anybody who's so desperate that he would steal that car may perhaps deserve your mercy. But most of us drive a car with a five-figure price tag. Our insurance policies clearly state that if that car is stolen or destroyed, the insurance company will only pay us its wholesale value. For many of us, that's not even enough money to pay off the loan. It certainly won't buy a replacement of equivalent value. You pay $30K retail for a car (which these days isn't even a particularly fancy one), somebody steals it, and you get wholesale bluebook which would be around $25K if you're lucky. You're immediately out $5K, and you have to pay to rent a car for a couple of weeks while you find your next one--for which you'll also pay another thousand bucks for tax, license, emissions inspection, yatta yatta.

    Not to mention, everybody's car is full of extremely personal stuff. To have your car stolen is like somebody breaking into your house and looking through all the drawers in your bedroom and your office, and then dumping it in the street.

    I'm a pacifist but I'm also a firm disciple of situational ethics. If somebody's going to do that to me, then as far as I'm concerned he has removed himself from the structure of civilization. He's just vermin, and vermin can be exterminated. I don't have a gun (statistically I'd be three times more likely to shoot my wife than a burglar) but I'd certainly run him down with my 5000lb car.

    And then I'd back over him a couple of times just to make sure.

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    (Just kidding. I'd let my dogs take care of him until the cops showed up.)

    We live in the most generous country on earth. People move to Los Angeles just because the weather is so mild that they can sleep outdoors 340 nights a year, and the people there are so politically leftist that they give money to panhandlers all the time. Even drug addicts can get free help.

    Nobody in America is so desperate that they have to steal somebody else's stuff to survive. They're just lazy, or greedy, or selfish, or their momma didn't raise 'em right.
     
  19. ricardonest Registered Senior Member

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    When someone is trying to attack you and you need to protect yourself.
     
  20. KilljoyKlown Whatever Valued Senior Member

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    I wouldn't kill anyone steeling my car. That's one of the reasons I had a Lo-Jack installed on it. I've been Lo-Jacking all my cars for about the last 20 years and in that time I've reported my car stolen 3 times.

    From the moment I made the report it never took the police more than 2 hours to locate my car. They never caught the thief driving it. It was always parked with no one in it. But the point being the act of killing the thief is not something I would want to live with if I have other options and Lo-Jacking a car doesn't cost that much and it's even cheaper when you do it at the time you buy it. Anyway, it only cost me $100.00 as part of the new car package.
     
  21. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I hope someone steals my car.
     
  22. Search & Destroy Take one bite at a time Moderator

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    lmao great post Fraggle. darksidZz, Asguard, I recommend reading carefully lest you find yourself in the outcome of an unprepared situation thinking "ah they told me so."

    haha, what your pack of lhasa apsos? Too funny rofl
     

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