Whence comes logic

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Speakpigeon, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Speakpigeon Valued Senior Member

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    Here is your chance to air your views as to whence comes logic.

    As a motivation introduction, I observe that most educated people take logic to be a branch of mathematics, or perhaps whatever mathematicians study that they call "logic" since broadly the beginning of the 20th century. Yet, the first systematic presentation of what humans understand of logical rules was made by Aristotle and that was something like 2,400 years ago, and as far as I know, most intellectuals since have accepted Aristotle's presentation as correct. I'm not aware that anything in mathematical logic shows Aristotle was wrong.

    Whatever the case, is it possible to study anything if there isn't something to study? This suggests logic exists somehow somewhere. But where exactly?

    Traditionally, philosophers see rules of logic as necessary and a priori, rather than contingent and empirical. Putnam argued they could be empirical, taking the example of Quantum Physics to support this suggestion. Yet, even a priori rules have to come from somewhere unless you think God the merciful help us sort out the necessary from the contingent.

    If we all have our own personal sense of logic, why is it most intellectuals agreed with Aristotle's logic (and I would assume most people here)? But if we all have the same logic, how come?

    And where are we supposed to look when we want to produce a method of logic that, somehow, would be correct?
    EB
     
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

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    Great topic!

    While Plato and Aristotle may claim to establish the field of logic and set some rules they certainly can not claim to be the originators of it.
    Logical reasoning was demonstrated way before Plato and ilk.
    As to how did the use of logic come to be?
    I tend to feel that it could be blamed on our basic instincts and understandings of ourselves and our environment.
    For example:
    • To take the apple from the tree, one must reach out with ones hand and grab it. Pull it away and bingo you have got it. The apple logically can not be got with out some sort of action. While it may not be considered as logical 10's of thousands of years ago it certainly was.
    • It is logical that the sucking reflex of a new born child should be employed and the child is fed milk from a mothers breast if the baby is to survive and the mothers comfort achieved.
    etc.
    So it could be argued that Nature provides the imperative and motivation to make use of what we may consider as rudimentary behavioral logic if we wish to seek our key human traits of survivor-ship and self determination.

    The modern use of higher forms of logic evolved from simple beginnings.

    just thoughts...
     
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  5. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

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    I'd say logic is a chemical balance; when you can think clearly. A logical thinker may be someone you can't manipulate?

    I'll call him a friend but that's it. I don't want him to develop a very emotional attachment. Recently I had a man at my place that has some serious issues. Talking to me about his dead father and how he was thinking of killing himself. Talking to me about his time in the psychiatric wing of the hospital. All I really said to him was that you can still have dreams of lost loved ones, that it's natural. To see his doctor and maybe he/she will refer you to a specialist. In the back of my mind what I was thinking the only thing was only thing that can really help him is some psychoactive drugs.
     
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  7. Doug_Nightmare Registered Member

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    Before the calculus of logic there was rhetoric.

    The Science of Conjecture: Evidence and Probability Before Pascal (JHU, 2001) by James Franklin

    Afterwards came eristic. Eschew eristic.
     
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  8. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    there are some borderline theological suggested theories around naturalness being a state.
    life or death of a cell which is now multi-cell which has become aware of its own mortality...
    is there a cause & effect absolute nature to determine a form of agreed basic function ?

    i always leant toward logic being a philosophy rather than a science and science containing logic(rather than the other way around).
     
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    IMO, from the definition, logic is the natural orderly process from which universal mathematical functions emerged.

    One cannot exist without the other. They are sides of the same coin.

    But it seems that logic would have preceded mathematics, in that logic can exist as a purely abstract property, whereas logical mathematical functions depend on physical properties, especially in the processing of physical "values".
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/logic

    I believe (c) can also refer to the functions in mathematics. i.e. the sequence of 1 + 1 = 2
    I believe (d) can also refer to the geometric properties of spacetime. i.e. a computing engine.

    "Patterns" are logical arrangements of mathematical values?
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
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  10. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    That's it! The rules and formulas are mere frills added on to a simple tool used by all reasoning animals.
    Just as puns, riddles and metaphors are frills added to language.
    Because.... we can.
     
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  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    But what would guarantee that the universe has logical functions? It does not reason, yet it is entirely predictable when all values are known. Determinism, no?
     
  12. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    can you give a few examples of reasoning & non reasoning animals for me please ?
    is reasoning only possible with formulos ?
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/formuli
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    I would argue that logic is what non-reasoning animals function under and it is not always reasonable.
    The problem is we can't.
    We can add riddles and metaphors, but they can never replace the inherent logical operands.
    In computing;
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boolean_algebra

    Following mathematical logic, in each of the expressions below,

    Is 5 (x) equal to 8 (y)? False
    Is 5 not equal to 8? True
    Is 5 less than 8? True
    Is 5 greater than 8? False
    Is 5 less than or equal to 8? True
    Is 5 not less than or equal to 8? False

    IMO, this is how cause/effect operates as a universal function. The mathematics follow naturally from these logical operators.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  14. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    What guarantee that the horse will push the cart?
    The commonly noted examples are apes, corvids, cetaceans, elephants, some canids and rodents. But cephalopods have been surprising researchers of late, so who knows how much more intelligent other species are than the humans have given credit? Anyway, I classify as reasoning all types of problem-solving behaviour that requires putting two or more facts together to predict an outcome.
    Let me reiterate : The ... formulas are mere frills added on... [ to reason] as ... metaphors are added on to language.
    If communication would only be possible with metaphors, Picard would have been able to talk quite fluently with Dathon: no problem; no plot.
    http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Darmok_(episode)
    (You got to love Memory Alpha!)
    "Function under" does not mean the same as "use." Everything functions under the operation of physics. Reason is an attribute of highly complex molecular structures that have evolved to the point where they can stave off entropy. Logic is a function of reason. It is a tool used by conscious entities to describe, investigate, predict and manipulate the operations of the physical world.
    A frill isn't intended to replace the garment; only to enhance it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  15. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

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    In digital logic, numbers are a re-interpretation of operations on binary strings which are all Boolean.

    To add two bits together, you need OR, AND, and NOT. Addition means you have to construct a "gate product" with two gates, AND and OR, both their inputs are the same. If you want a 2-bit number so you can actually add a pair of 1s and get 2, or 10, you need more than one logic gate with or without unary NOT.

    So in this case, it seems the Boolean logic is a basis for arithmetic logic.
     
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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I disagree. IMO, logic is a universal function, an inherent potential of spacetime. Reason is a human ability, but is not necessarily logical.

    Nothing that humans or anything else can do has any influence on the logical functions of the universe. We can use the logical functions, but we cannot change them regardless of frills.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,607
    Meaning, what influence do humans have on universal logic? **What is it we can?
    ??? Sorry, I don't see what that has to do with Boolean logic.
    I agree those are reasoning animals, but even human reasoning is not necessarily logical in content.
    A stampeding herd usually has a good reason to stampede, but stampeding over a cliff is not very logical.
    Here I must disagree. IMO, Logic is inherent in and a function of the structure of the universe.
    OTOH, reason is a tool used by conscious entities and is based on logic. The expression for thinking logically is called "reasoning". But there is no such thing as "logicking", except maybe for computers.....

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    https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-logic-and-reason
    Strictly speaking there can be no enhancement or improvement on logic. We can use frills (various forms of reasoning) to enhance our understanding of a logical argument. I believe that is called reasoning from different "perspectives", not all of them necessarily from logical perspectives.

    Mathematical equations are inherently logical and therefore "reasonable", but not the other way around.
    **You cannot reason an equation and make it logical.
     
  18. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

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    Make up rules and formulas. Invent puns and metaphors. Embellish the simple tools of reasoning and communication in order to make them more versatile, adapt them to more esoteric applications than simple problem-solving and sharing of information, or else to do those things more effectively and accurately.
    There is no "universal logic". There is how the universe functions, followed after a few billion years, by the observations and deductions done by reasoning entities, followed, after another few million years, by a clever ape's recognition of what he's been doing, followed by his organization of that [reasoning] into a coherent system, to which he then - and only then - gives the name "logic".
    Nothing. You asked: "what would guarantee that the universe has logical functions?" which was putting the cart before the horse.
    The universe functions - entirely without a guarantee. Logic is one of the ways we explain the little we know about how it functions. It is the functioning of the universe that gives rise to, determines and "guarantees" that logic works.
    Human thought is very often unreasoning, because we other motivations than simple problem-solving. We also have a lot of imagination and think up all kinds of things not founded on accurate information.
    Here, you conflate a reason - a cause, motive or purpose for some action - with the process of reasoning - thinking rationally.
    That's precisely an example of un-reasoning behaviour. The stampede is caused, by some external chain of events, not by formulating a purpose: the action is directly motivated by panic.

    You raise logic to an even more esoteric discipline, at the same time that you attribute it to the unconscious universe.
    Okay. We don't see it the same way.
     
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, if I did not make that clear. The universe itself guarantees the logical function, humans do not.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Herd senses danger and stampedes
    Herd blindly follows the leader and runs off the cliff.

    Apply the Boolean logic and you will see the answer.

    No Free Will.
     
  21. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks. i was wondering if the list was made up of values associated to functions of a physical atribute like being able to locate and consume its own food source vs not having any independant ability to move its self knowingly about etc.

    i think people eating octopus is no different to people eating puppies and kittens(my suspision is the main difference is probably seated in racial prejudice in the minds ability to justify behaviour models in group situations[but thats a rather complex and involved debate which i wont have online]).
    The familial assosiation toward animals as being worthy of anthropromorphist emotional co-dependant relationships while then killing them to eat is quite fascinating.

    could this be considered as humans playing with their food like cats, dogs, Birds of prey, & orca ?

    err-go... are all humans the same [?](etc...)

    dalliance of curious posit
    may a human live in a logical manner ?
     
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Apparently the subconscious physical control mechanisms act in a logical manner. And we don't even know it!
    Mitosis is an exquisitely precise logical process at an astounding continuous rate.

    Note Berry's use of the term "microtubules", the little computers which logically process the DNA copying commands. The little walkers are chemical information packets.

    However, these biological sensory and chemical processing mechanisms may become defective and their logical functions become impaired. Then we experience a "disability".
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018
  23. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    shakespeare
    (surely you can recognise shakespeare ? or atleast now i define it)
    the closest language that i am aware of which i can not speak or read is native american.
    it is a poetic self referencing frame work of emotive and physical interaction.
    some old african languages are similar i believe.

    the idea of a self referencing poetic theme metaphour is not a big jump from egyptian hyroglyphs and is seen in south america & asia & tibet and a few other places.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2018

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