# Who created God?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Saint, Jun 6, 2005.

1. ### GodlessObjectivist MindRegistered Senior Member

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*you are wrong, the way of christanity is to spread the word, and convert as many people as possible.*

And in ancient days, this meant BY FORCE!.

Godless

3. ### SkinWalkerArchaeology / AnthropologyModerator

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Of course I'm saying that Christians are no better than everyone else. I'm also saying that christianity, as a moral foundation, fails. The sources are easily available. Here's one:
http://abstractsdb.ncjrs.org/conten...e=25&ncjnum=151513&docIndex=0&chkBoxBitFlags=

Actually, I mistyped.. I corrected the quote above in by adding the missing text in red.

Typical fundamentalist propaganda. Actually, many if not most of the Founding Fathers were Deists.

Someone else gave some relevant links, so I'll leave this alone from here.

The link above is the one "out of context." The author attributes the quote to "George Washington," quite in error. It was Joel Barlow who wrote the treaty and John Adams that read it aloud on the Senate floor. It quite clearly says:
Note the ";" which punctuates a complete thought.

Now there's something to be proud of. You are suggesting that the colonists and pioneers of the United States were justified in slaughtering millions of men, women and children in wholesale Genocide because such was the command of a god?

If that's the case, then I certainly want no part of your cult! Indeed, anyone who would believe such nonsense is Pathetic!

I truly hope I misunderstood you.

No... systems of ethics are part of humanity, as is religion.
It is apparent that the ethics of christianity are flawed as they leave too many loopholes for "believers" to take advantage of.

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7. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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The way of Christianity is to love they God with all thy heart and all thy soul, and to love thy neighbor as thy self.
This cannot be disputed among believers because Jesus says it plain and simple. Anything else is a distortion. The fall of Christianity started a long time ago in the dark ages.

The founders were influenced by the scripture to write what was on their hearts, so the founders of this nation were biased by Christianity.

8. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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Give me a break. The first reference attempts to use the fact that Christianity is not mentioned in the founding documents is evidence that the founders were not Christians.

Okay the second doesn't hardly use any quotes of the men. It judges them mainly on their actions. What a snapshot point of view that is inaccurate due to the lack of detail.

No detail on the third either. The quotes given are clearly out of context because they can be interpreted either way.

I have seen writings from the founders and they were Christians. My pastor gave me tons of writings. Unless you want to search for yourself, you'll have to wait. I think it is in my glovebox. I didn't think their belief would be questioned. Goodness how ignorant this nation is to its own history. Most of the founders were Christians than me in some respects. Besides we all know about the black robed preachers and witch hunts. Most, if not all people were Christians. The preachers were extremely predjudice. We all know the stories. That is absolutely absurd to say that this nation was not a nation of Christians. That is to disregard American History. People who didn't believe were shunned severly. It's a sad point and not one that looks favorably on Christianity, but it is a fact!
Here's one for you to chew on until I get back:
http://www.lawandliberty.org/founders.htm

9. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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If you word is from an atheist point of view who knows little of the Holy Ghost, then you cannot possibly begin to comprehend the way of Christianity.

10. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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Typical response from atheists.
The quotes are out of context and there are very few. How can we presume to know the beliefs of an individual without tons of thoughts from them? I cannot tell your beliefs without your word, or would you like for me to classify you as you do them?

Yes, but we cannot make the conclusion of what the founders believed without mountains of writings of thoughts. Otherwise, we are going to get nowhere.

Yes, the mercy of God is beautiful. You see, we cannot take vengence for those who stab us in the back because it is God's.

You are entitled to your belief, and I can't help it if you do not want to understand.

There are no loopholes. We are not excused of anything. "Christians" have distorted your point of view so much that you think you know it all and have already passed judgement. Your mind is closed on the matter, so you will not understand. I will teach you the scriptures, but you must want to learn.

Do not presume to know anything of Christianity, because you know nothing of it. Would you ask a doctor of medicine what makes Jupiter orbit the sun? A doctor of medicine would not know anything about astronomy.

Do not presume to know what we are about from unethical Christians. "Wide is the gate, but narrow is the way." God says most Christians will not make it to heaven, so do not base our religion on the worst of us. You have a scientific mind, so how can you understand the spiritual which is illogical? Rediculous. I'm tired of the misconceptions of the way of Christianity here. I am spending way too much time here, and you are wasting my time with your baby's understanding of scripture that you attempt to use to thwart my arguments. You divert attention from the argument with your vices of logic. It is a pitiful scheme.

I have accepted your viewpoint with an open mind, and I tell the other Christians they need to back off because your logic is undeniable and that scientifically there is no God. We go to talk about ethics and morality of the nation and again you resort to attacking something you know little about.

Rediculous and a waste of my time. When we move to morality and ethics, you must assume that Christianity is true for sake of argument. Otherwise, we will get nowhere because I have to continually defend Christianity from preconceptions and misunderstandings of scripture.

When I talk about Christianity in the context of ethics I am not talking about Christianity, but the system of ethics that is taught.

Sorry, but I'm just tired of wasting my time with explaining the basics of Christianity.

11. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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This is my point when we talk about "Christians". "Christians" don't even read the thing!

I'll admit that I wasn't always a true Christian, I was a proclaimed "Christian" because it was the "in" thing and didn't read my bible, but I proclaimed I did.

Things have changed since then and I am a teacher of scripture in my church, but I want to teach what is real and applicable to my students. Not some mumbo jumbo Jesus loves me superficial junk. We need to teach the faith and not get caught up in the stupidness that Christianity breeds. The illogical brainwashed type thinking. The fluff. I can't stand the fluff. If someone is hurting I want them to say I'm hurting instead of "Oh, I'm fine. And walk away smiling." I don't like the fake farting Christians who give true Christians a bad name. But, I forgive them because I was once one of them and we all have a different level of understanding and we have to be sensitive to that. I am not a typical. I am something that is hard to find at church. I know this because I attend church and see fluffy CHristianity that is useless and pointless. The type of Christians you know and have learned from must be the type which God will spit out of his mouth because they are luke-warm. Yuck!

12. ### [D]ejaVuRegistered Member

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The bible was written by the same people that thought the world was flat.

Back to the Subject... Who Created God?
Who can comprehend forever? think about it? think about a line of toilet paper stretching forever.....picture it in your mind. Can you? No! it ends somewhere dosn't it? Of course it does cause human brains are limited. There can be no answers to anything when you speak of God or the Devine or whatever...if there was a creator we cant proove it and if there wasn't we must assume a differen't force that constructed the universe to its finely tuned workings. That force cannot be proved/explained and God cant be explained... its a Lose Lose stituation i believe.

And yeah you Bible people belong in caves....cave men ( oh and dont gimmie a reply about how I should love yourself (cause i do *kisses reflection*) or that you feel sorry for me because i feel this way....its old, or that you sense anger in me....pfft i'll brush you off like a fly on a BBQ'd meal!)

loving human, its all you need to know

13. ### catoless hate, more scienceRegistered Senior Member

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you are not a physics buff are you? they know quite well what events are needed to produce the finely tuned universe we have before us.

14. ### [D]ejaVuRegistered Member

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To Cato,

Well why dont you enlighten me then Mr."You are not a Physics buff are you?"
make your when you copy your answers off the webpage you got them from that you make sure that it looks like you wrote up the conclusions yourself.

I wasn't refering to conditions....i was refering to the production. Anyway i believe you are wrong and let me tell you why.

For your infomation Mr. Assume too much, i would like to point you in the direction towards "Theory." There are heaps of theory's out there Jr. and they are called theory's because thats exactly what they are. FYI: A theory where i could give an example of what i meant as the universe being "finely tuned" the way the Universe was created and sustained according to the "Big Bang" theory: A common phrase that alot of physics buffs use to prove the existance of a creator is that the "Big Bang" created a "motion" that set out bodies that "were perpelled out in just the right way to produce the Universe" we all love and call home. To put it blantly... any more force then "shit! there goes the Universe." .... any less force " Fark the Universe is imploding." Mind you these are all Theorys. They are still shifting through the myesteries of the Universe, so i wouldn't hold your breath to "they know quite well." because they dont. Look up the latest sharades to explain the universe "String Theory" or G-Theory. Before this theory elementary particales were described as zero-dimentional points, now with string theory they have dimentions. Another example is the atom.....the smallst thing my ass... BAM! they split it up.....they looked in-side and they were like "holyshit! what the fark are these things?" - Nucleons and Quarks. To understand the Universe i must say i dont know what it takes, but i know one thing nobody on earth EVER in history knowns "quite well." what events are needed to produce the Universe, because we dont know everything about it. And whoever says "blah blah .....it was because of gravatons ...etc" is theorizing...this moment in time anyway....who knows what the future might hold aye? and dont tell me the Roma's do

15. ### [D]ejaVu`Registered Member

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Sorry just to refer back.... i meant M-Theory, not G-Theory. M for MyGodSomePeopleSayStuffWithoutEvidence

16. ### SarkusHippomonstrosesquippedalo phobeValued Senior Member

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Jayleew, I think I'm beginning to see where your arguments stem from....

When you refer to Christians you are not referring to all the people who would merely claim to be of that particular religion, but to the one or two people in each million who actually reach your IDEAL of Christianity - i.e. the one or two Missionaries who happily give their life to save the murderer of their children (or that type of thing).
Anyone that falls short of these ideals you are claiming should no longer be deemed a Christian.
So any person in prison for stealing, for killing, for fighting etc is not actually a Christian.
Obviously any ideal Christian reads the Bible through the (blinkered spectacles of the) Holy Spirit, and anyone who can't read it through the Holy Spirit is obviously not a true Christian.

Am I anywhere close?

17. ### GodlessObjectivist MindRegistered Senior Member

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4,197
Little do you know! that I was a Catholic, Babtist, then a Christian for over 20 years of my life. I've read the Godamn bible, not-from cover to cover, but the point was to read what the preacher preached. I have read most of the crap in the so called morals.

So what is so moral, about Lot given up his daughters to be raped by a mad mob, while he protects "two angels"?

Where in the hell do Japanese people come from, or black men, if there were only two freaking people in the world?. In biblical times it was hay-day for incest.

O! and that reminds me, what about Lot's daughters?. LOL.. Get him drunk to lay with him?. Come on dood!! read the godamn bible and tell me it's moral teaching!. Incest, rape, tourture, genocide, all a moral code of the god of the bible?..

When I was a child, I belived in childish things, when I finally grew up, I became aware of the real teaching of the so called moral ethics of the bible.
click
click
click

Where is the morality?

Godless

18. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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You are close. I am saying anyone who claims to follow Christ, and/or reads his Word, and does not the things the Word says, but instead uses the Word to justify their beliefs and/or actions are not a Christian. Those who mess up and realize their worth and repent of their sin and ask God to remove them from the sin, are Christians. Those who mess up and repent of their sin and allow themselves to sin because they know they will be forgiven again, or try to use scripture to allow their sin are not Christians.

There is more to what defines a true Christian, but this is the surface idea.

19. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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You'll get no fluff from me that I am conscience of. I swat those flies all the time from my brothers and sisters. It says in scripture we should have a child-like faith, but not be a child. They mean well with their fluff though, so I forgive them.

20. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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The mob wanted to have homosexual relations with the two men who came to Lot's house. Lot had faith in God, so anything that represents God, he loves more than his family. God always asks us to love him more than anyone on Earth. What Lot did was courageous to stand up to a crowd and offer his daughters. Besides that, in those days, tradition said that women and children are property. Jesus came and perfected the law and dared to call women and children friends.

Microevolution. Their bodies are adapted to live in the conditions which they came. That is only a theory though.

The Bible doesn't say anything, but that we are all from Adam and Eve. Do you realize how many kids they had back then. Their lifespan was such to produce a lot of offspring which decreased the odds of genetic mutation. Besides, women in those days had only one purpose.

Most of the old testament are stories of what not to do, dood. The history is there so we do not repeat the mistakes of those that came before us. The stories are also of righteous men who screwed up just like we did. Most of them repented, I'd like to think all, but the Bible is unclear...like with Jonah. The moral code of God is in the stories, not of the actions of man which is sinful. Even Abraham was foolish and did the best he could understand, but he paid the price of not listening to God all the time.

This is what I mean, your understanding along with most of the world is like a baby's. Again, the old testament are stories of how to endure through faith and what not to do. The new testament is vitally important on how to live since the law was perfected. The new testament teaches the morals we need to have, based on the mistakes of our ancestors. Because of this, I have concentrated my studies on the new testament. The old is important to keep context of the new. And it also shows the consitency of God, but the sinful wayward men. We are not to live as the old testament commanded. Jesus came and cleared this up. He basically came and said, "Wait a minute, I am the Son of God (and I am God), this is how you are to live. Forget what Moses said, he was a great guy and he dwells with me, but he is an idiot. And since you all are a bunch of screwups and screwups and God do not belong together, not like me (I am perfect), I will give up my human existence so that my Father will see my sacrifice for your sakes. Then you will have a chance to see my Father."

21. ### jayleewWho CaresValued Senior Member

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You were like I was, a self-proclaimed Christian. I did the best I could with what I had. I went to church and everything. That is the only the beginnings of Christianity. I was still under the influence of the world greatly with little faith in God...I chose to believe, but I had little faith. Faith comes over time with with a good track record of God's grace and aid. Christianity is a process. If you didn't learn how to be a Christian and what benefits there are to being one in 20 years, then that church failed you and you failed yourself by not seeking God yourself. Maybe one day you will find a real Christian who is not afraid to let God work, instead of himself, and give you something to believe in. Samson fell away from God just as you did. He lost everything. Before he died, he became a Christian and gained everything.

Yes, it wasn't until I sought God instead of the preacher that I learned anything of God that was practical. You will find God at church and learn a few things, but you will learn more on a one-on-one basis with God. I hardly remember last week's sermon, but I remember everything I learned on my own. It takes determination to become a Christian. You will know if a church has true Christians if the congregation does not lose one member when a pastor leaves and still bears plenitful fruit and spirit. I have been part of a church that split when the pastor left. I have been to a church who grew together when the pastor left. They were true Christians who met my needs. I am now at a church who looks inwardly instead of outwardly and I am working with the pastor to grow it by serving God instead of themselves. You knew only a glimpse of God. If you have experienced what I have, you would believe even if science said you were wrong. If you have breath, God has hope.

22. ### YazdajerdBehold... The Bringer of LightRegistered Senior Member

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When someone enters a room and finds it piled up with furniture...... you'll guess a million reason for that to have happened.

But if you enter the room with the furniture being "organized" in a certain pattern...... there is only one logical guess....... somebody placed it in that way.

You can't look at a chair and claim that the wood of the tree were chopped by themselves and the were carved all by themselves and then woooosh...... you've got a chair.............. logically somebody chopped those logs, carved their shapes and made the chair.

Till this point I hope you would agree.. Because if you don't then you need a serious course in "logical thinking".

Now can you tell where on this Earth do you find even the smallest of molecules wouldn't be bound to a certain Law in physics, chemistry, biology, biochemistry, trigonometry.........etc??????

If you don't see that, then according to what you think....... "Science" doesn't exist and scientists around the world should stop this non-sence and find a "real job"!!!!!

Now if you do see that, then you should agree the question should not be ((who created God?)) but rather ((who built the universe?))

23. ### YazdajerdBehold... The Bringer of LightRegistered Senior Member

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Talking in philosophy.......

A "non-perfect being" is always in need of a "more-perfect being"........
So, at least something greater than yourself has an authority over you, and that needs another being greater than himself until you reach that "perfectness" which is need of nothing to exist but rather that everything else is need of it..... this "perfectness" is "God".......

May you be enlightened........
Salam.......