Hi Didnt you guys read my reply on how infinte regression is absurd and leads to an infinite creator anyway, no matter which way you take. Ok I'll try and put the other part inot words now as well Cause and effect is a principle that follows from the law of non-contradction. Now cause and effct is just eevery effect has a cause. The law of non-contradiction (also called many other names in philosophy) basically states that something cannot be A and not-A in the same relationship. Now in out universe things change from being something to being something differnt, all of these changes occur with time, knowledge and position. The Bible and most other main stream religions teach of a all knowing, omnipresent, God that is outside time. So if the universe can be assumed to exist and astrophysics assumes so many exotic particles (see my response on Is Religion stupid for more info on that). Now we make this assumption (now I'm not proving God exists but that if God exist he doesnt need a creator). As a Christian I must assume that God is outside time, knows everything and is all-present. So if all of these are assumed then God cannot change his relationship in any way or form form and becuase He is outside of time, he has to both exist and not exist at the same time, therefore breaking the law of non-contradiction. THerefore if God does exist then he deosnt follow by our normal laws, and not the priniciple of cuase and effct. Therefore according to our definitions He has no cause, and therefore he cannot be created, that is if He exists He cannot be created
god can't be understood by thinking (observing). our intelligence is yet limited. animals can't learn things humans can. there's also things humans can't yet understand. consciousness (mind) can exist at many places at the same time. time exists in the human mind. if no one observes the world, it does not exist. in nothingness, there are no laws. i think things can be A and non-A. there's several examples but i forgot them.
As soon as this universe breaks the law of non contradiciotn we might as well stop studying physics, shemistry, biology, and maths, because all theses sciences are completely based on this law of logic, so as soon as you can find a real example give it and it'll either need to be disproved or we should stop studying physics maths chemistry and biology
God still talks. There have been numerous prophets throughout the history of mankind all of which spoke with God. Either that or they got extremely lucky with what they predicted, and I don't believe in luck.
The science of reality is not physics but a science of consciousness. We cannot be conscious of something outside our consciousness, so... the universe is in our mind. What we perceive as outside, is actually inside our mind. It might be hard to accept though.
You are obviosly not a scientist but only a philospher, and accepting realy bad philosophy at that, at least in my viewpoint, because if reality is just in our minds, then how come most of us have the same reality. And if reality is only in our minds that leads to relativism, which alos in turns leads to the anihilation of physics and such other scineces, so no matter what you argue unless you are a realist, and rationalist, as was shown by many scientist philospohpers such as Jaki, Popper and Kuhn, Newton, Galileo, Einstien, Bohr etc you cannot study science and you must throw science out the door because ther are no absolutes and thereofre science for you might be differnt for science from me. Therefore no matter how you try and argue this you cannot believe what you believe unless you make compomises but as soon as you do that you have to become a realist which is against the whole thing of reality being in just our minds
So what you have so eloquently managed to say is that if God exists outside time (eternally and infinitely) then he exists outside of time (eternally and infinitely). So if you define something as "A" then, quite miraculously, the thing is "A". Wow. Incredible. If I'd never heard of Begging the Question, this is it.
What i said, is if God exists and he is the christian God then the laws of logic as we know it doesnt apply to him thats it. Because if he needed a creator (cuase) then he breaks the law of non-contradicion. And by the way it is exatcly the way bing bang therists argue, and there arguments are "logical" and scientific so either you accept this or reject it but then you have to throw the big bang out with this argument.
worlds within worlds. Gods within Gods. Creators and created. Endless cycles. Birth and death. Exhale and Inhale. The universe moves. Only the enlightened can fathom such things.
you are forgetting one fundamental piece of evidence. we know the universe exist, and makes sense. we don’t know god exists, and if it did it would not make sense. that is what you call a "ad-hock" argument. how to you know god can't be understood? did he tell you? if so, how did you understand it?
WE know the universe needed a cause, what was that cause?? We know that if God exists then he doesnt need a cause (inifinte regression and also law of non-contradiction, my past somewhere on this). So if the universe needed a cause then that cause must be bigger, becuase of entropy. Also as someone else said (not that I agree with him/her) but reality might just be in our minds (now i know as scientists we cannot accpet this as true but it is still a philosphical viewpoint). But in the end I believe it comes down to what Ken Ham once said: "You have to choose which bias is the best bias to be biased with." For me the most logiac bias to be biased with is that there does exist a God, other wise how what would have caused the universe? And if God exists as I argued from 2 points now, one having been misunderstood and I will work on presenting that argument better, but normally i require alot of drawings and diagrams, but yes i did assume A, but all all I siad with that is if we assume A then A does not need a cuase. so you (forgot who siad that) rightly said I assumed A and therefore A must be. But in essence it is a proof by deduction I assume A then get that if A is then A cannot not have been there A must be, mathematically its is L.H.S = (some eqaution) R.H.S. Althought this was just done in words. Anyway wat I am saying extra in this point is that I believe that the best bias to be biased with is assume that there is a creator
No, I have never heard of quantum foam. Besides, when scientists can predict the weather at least 90% seven days from now, I will have more faith in science. Science is nothing more than observation and hypothesis. How do we know that there is not another, more efficient, way to count (instead of mathematics). All these things are theories. Some theories work most of the time, but they are all imperfect. Then, you are choosing not done your homework....or you think you know all there is to know. This is ignorance. I can give you countless records of countless people (myself included) that God is faithful and has a proven safety record. Besides that, there is physical evidence of God. Have you seen "The Search for the Real Mount Sainai"? Every account of Moses is found behind enemy lines in Saudi Arabi (Midian), including the burnt mountain. The Saudi's guard this mountain because of its implications to their own faith. The countryside is barren, but they guard this empty mountain, and the locals know what it is. You ask them, they tell you it is Mount Sainai like we would say "down the street is a 7-eleven." However, this is not the only proof. There is countless evidence. If there is a God, then he is a God of eternity and was not made by one man, nor was he found three hundred years ago. All religions are founded by one, except Christianity who have many. Believing in the wrong god is the same as not believing in God. We always have a choice. The faith is about a choice. I do not have to live as the Bible dictates. In fact, there are times when I am weak (because I am not God). I sin. I repent. I am made clean, but I still reap what I sow. I am living my own life. I do what I want, not what everyone else is doing. I am not peer pressued into being like everyone else. The only way to be yourself is to give up living like someone else. Trust me, I have been on the flip side of the coin, because God has made me like you. I am, by nature, a skeptic. It is good to be so. The difference between you an I is that I did my homework. I still struggle with the fact that the Bible is written by human hand. But, I have faith in the words of Christ. If Christ is who he says, then everything he says must be true, and no one can dispute the existence of Christ. There is contraversy of who he is, but he was. I choose to believe because I have hope. Get real. You sound like a foolish "Christian." All you know of Christianity is from foolish "Christians." The kind that come to your house and think that they can save you. You have yet to experience the love a true Christian who will be there when you least expect him and when you need him the most. But, they are few. It is sad that the world is full of "Christians", and they will perish on the day of judgement, along with the rebellious. What you ask of me is called tempting God. That is what Satan did to Jesus in the desert. He said, "Throw yourself on the rocks and surely angels will come and save you, then I will believe and worship your God." You can test God, but not tempt him. It is prideful for me to think God should save me, a sinner. I have hope that in the end he will remember his own promises to see the blood of Christ dripping on my limbs. If I went to heaven now I would be breaking my faith and that is to love my neighbor more than myself. I desire to leave this world of misery, but I stay to keep the commandment and serve mankind with love. Those I know and love and love me would be the weaker if I left today. God would not have me do that, so I will not tempt him to save me for the sake of my family and me. My work here is not done, I cannot leave until it is completed.
So you say that the Universe was caused - and you are labelling the cause as "God" - and you are now worshipping it. And your argument about assuming "A" therefore "A" is true is entirely begging of said question. You may have used different words on either side of your equation, but the two lots of words both meant the same thing: On one side: "I must assume that God is outside time." On the other: "He has no cause, and therefore he cannot be created." Surely "outside time" equates to "has no cause". So if we assume A then A. But please, if I'm still missing it, feel free to diagram to your heart's contentment. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Mathematics is not a theory. It is a tool. Base 10 probably isn't the most efficient way to count. Computers use binary, and machine code, I think, is hexadecimal (base-16). But that may be purely a result of their architecture. I guess you'd have to see what base suited the human architecture. Please do. Please realise that evidence of the existence of Mt. Sinai is not evidence of God. It is merely evidence of Mt. Sinai. Hmmm. Begging the question. If Jesus is the Son of God then God exists. Woohoo! And you choose to believe because you want to. It doesn't make it true. No - this is not Christianity. This is love. Platonic or otherwise, it is love. And not the sole property of Christians or even the religious. And I don't think you, sitting in front of a PC somewhere, are in a position to tell people what they have or haven't experienced in their life while they sit in front of their PC 1000s of miles away.
And people still want to see mount Sinai. Dont you realise the bible is metaphor and code. When it says moses went up mount sinai to talk to god, the mountain moses climbed was to his higher conscienceness. so when moses went up mount sinai to talk to god he did not physically go anywhere, he accessed higher states of being / enlightenment to comunicate with his higher self (God). Religion is about matters spiritual but people still cant see past the material.
it seem you are the one who has not done your homework. I know all about "Sinai" but it is only hear say. if someone said there was a 7-11 down the street I would believe him or her, not because their saying so was evidence, but because I don't think they would have a reason to lie. if I didn’t trust the person, then I could go down the street and find out for my self. I can't do that with any biblical "evidence" sorry, I said records or facts, a record alone is not sufficient (anyone can write down a lie or misconception), I should have said "records and fact" you have a point in your argument against death, but you could work non-stop to help people. work a day job (which helps society) then use your money to buy crystal meth, and then help people all nigh long for the rest of your life.
The universe was not always there. Science proves that is ever expanding, implying that the cosmic bodies are moving outwardly, which implies that they were at one time close together because of Newton's law. Check out the New York Times Bestseller, "The Case for a Creator", if you seek the truth. It was written by Lee Strobel who writes, "My road to atheism was paved by science...but, ironically, so was my later journey to God." Time and time again I read or hear about learned people who seek to disprove God with intelligence, and end up finding God's design. I myself made the decision to follow God after researching Darwin's Evolution and the evidence supporting and disproving it. It was Darwin's own theory that disproved his theory. If life is not by chance, then it is of design. If life is by design, then the design was created. Can you prove life was by chance? Go ahead and try. An honest effort could take up to a year of research. It took me a few months to compile enough evidence to make a decision. Luckily, I came across an author who did a lot of scientific research already! Unfortunately, that was years ago. That's a good thing, because everyone needs to make up their own mind about things, it does little good for us to debate, but it is engaging.
Theories debate whether the universe will always expand, or will contract again and go through a bang/shrink/bang/shrink cycle. But they are all theories - so please don't quote them as fact. This is not truth but one man's theories and ideas. No matter how many people "find God's design" it is still unprovable. As is his non-existence. But you are content in your "prove he doesn't exist" fallacy. It is your task to prove the statement that "Life is of design". You are stating the case - so you prove it. The burden of proof is on you, not on those who don't claim it is by design, not even on those who claim a lack of designer, but it lies on the person claiming the existence of something. A decision is not proof. If you feel your "evidence" exists and is sufficient, by all means take it to a scientific journal. Hell, bring it here for scrutiny.
You don't have to believe it. You don't believe me because everything is subjective, and there is no objective reality. I'm not talking about science of personal minds. There is only one mind. We can't be sure of a material universe, but we can be sure of mind.
Because it describes "Christians" in Romans and Corithians. Jesus himself said, "Woe to you Pharisees and teachers of the law" The Pharisees of that time are no different than "Christians" today. They want their own way and make their religion excuse themselves. Agreed. No, that is "Christian" foolishness and a lie. God sees everything as for him or against. Nothing is relative. It has always been that way, and it always will be that way. There are only two laws that we must keep, and the whole law is kept by the two. Prior to Jesus, Moses did the best he could, but people still screwed up. It was people who were pissed at people sporting tatoos, not God. They were a proud people because of tradition. God was pissed at people with sin in their hearts. God has always had the same law, it is us who changed the law to fit our needs. Jesus fullfilled the law and perfected it, so when he comes again, that's it, no more grace the plan is perfectly complete. There is a breakingpoint even with God, but he does not want to see anyone perish. We are the rebels, not God. As I said before, sin is sin. It is anything that breaks the two commandments of love that Jesus gave. Anything that breaks the 10 commandments breaks the two. God hasn't told any one anything because it is complete. There is no need of prophets anymore because of Jesus. He was the ultimate prophet, he was God on Earth. You know what is sinning because you know what is sinning from the Holy Ghost and from Jesus Christ who speak the same thing. Who knows. What if they are wrong? Who was he who wrote that lie? Abraham was a screwup, just like me. But he had faith and hope and it was counted for righteousness. God knows what we know, and we are only accountable for what we know. That is reason for the Tribulation to come. That is a far-fetched statement to assert that Christianity is disproven. If it were, we would not be talking about this today. Many Christians are biased, not all of them. You have a fallacy in your argument. Like I said, I am objective. I realize how unbelievable the story is. My doubts about it are so head-strong at times, but I stay the course to whatever end in the hope that it is true. As I said before, the Bible is hard for me accept as fact because it was written by human hand. But, I choose to accept it by faith and hope. And because of Jesus Christ, who was real. And because the accounts of Jesus. And because of the unexplained miracles of today that baffles science. Clinically dead people getting up after the prayer of a child...that sort of thing. If you want to believe in God, go to Africa where devil worship and witchcraft is pervailent. Curses, hexes, and spells are real. That is where the battle ground of spirituality is. If you want to find God, sell everything you have and live on the street with the homeless. The strongest Christians are those that have came from the grips of Satan. I have learned more about life from visiting with the homeless than from church on Sunday. If I don't believe, and there is God, I'm up a creek in a lake of fire. Are you willing to take the chance? Besides, the rewards of a life spent for others is so contentful. Even Budah knew the secret of peace. It is my open mind and skepticism that brought me to the belief I have now. If you would only stop believing what you are hearing from other people (including me) and do the work yourself, you would find the truth. Test the sources you have for objectivity before you go off changing your view. Not every argument is solid, even if it appears to be. I'm sure you know this.
