Who designed the designer?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,872
    But I did.
    Doesn't matter when.
    No such assumption posted.

    You posted this falsehood: "It is man that transgresses the laws, not God". I noted it, is all. I didn't claim you had thought about it. I recommend you do think about it - and your motives for not thinking about it, earlier.
     
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  3. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    To no one in particular
    Years ago I read a book called The Jet Propelled Couch. If you can find a copy I'm sure it would make fascinating reading for all in this thread and others of much the same flavour

    The essence of the main story as told by the writer, a psychiatrist, is as follows. By the way I am going to use lay language not the long professional diagnosis
    A referral person walked into his office
    They began to converse
    The psychiatrist was puzzled because there did not appear to be anything wrong
    He asked why had the person been sent
    The patient said that he had been making trips to another planet where he was treated like a prince and had been able to solve many of the planets problems and save it from destruction
    The psychiatrist noted patient was as nuttey as a fruit cake
    He also noted this was such a deeply held belief he would need to engage with the patient at a deep level
    He began to question the patient about the other planet, its inhabitants and gained as much information as he could and made extensive notes as to what he was told
    From memory this took a few years
    One day the psychiatrist was questioning the patient about a discrepancy over some account he had been given earlier
    The patient became uneasy
    Noticing this the psychiatrist asked what was the problem
    The patient confesses that for a few months he had come to the understanding he was as nuttey as a fruit cake
    Why had he continued to provide details about the planet and inhabitants and the problems of the planet then

    Looking the psychiatrist in the eye he said

    "Because you seem to enjoy it so much"

    Here endith the lesson of how we can all enjoy our fantasy's which have no connection with reality

    Gave the psychiatrist a insight into his self awareness

    The Jet Propelled Couch - find it - read it

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
    Xelasnave.1947 likes this.
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  5. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    So why don't you say what you're talking about, then we can discuss it?

    If I'm asking, it does.
    Or don't I matter?

    I'm still waiting to hear why it is a '' falsehood"?

    Jan.
     
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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I did. Discuss away.
    No, it doesn't.
    That question/answer doesn't matter. How much you identify with it I couldn't say.
    I am not an expert on why your God transgresses the laws, and I don't care enough to become one. Why don't you ask someone who is?
     
  8. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    15,247
    John 3:42 Do as I say not as I do.

    <>
     
  9. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    11,193
    Why is it a falsehood?

    Jan.
     
  10. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    15,247
    ///
    Humans cannot disobey laws of any god until some god comes out of hiding & shows itself.

    <>
     
  11. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    11,193
  12. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Why can't they?

    jan.
     
  13. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ///
    Cannot obey or disobey something I do not know exists. Neither can you.

    <>
     
  14. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ///
    You have a better 1?

    <>
     
  15. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    11,193
    It's futile to argue against something that you can't argue against.

    jan.
     
  16. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Of course you can.
    Why would you think that you couldn't?

    jan.
     
  17. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    //
    Of course you cannot.

    <>
     
  18. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ///
    If you do not have a better argument, it is futile to say it is a weak argument.
    It is futile to claim someone rejects what you cannot even show exists.

    <>
     
  19. kx000 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't believe in a design process, unless God created a nature for the creation to be destroyed. I believe in a singular eternity.
     
  20. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    4,885
    The idea of 'laws of nature' does seem to be derived from religion. Religion seems to have acquired the idea by analogy with the edicts of ancient kings, whose word became law (and hence shaped reality). So the idea emerged that somebody or something must have initially spoken the laws that have governed the universe ever since.

    Even if we reject theistic sorts of religion (not all religion is theistic) we still have the problem of where the 'laws of physics' come from. Why does reality behave this way rather than that way? What accounts for and undelies all those equations that theoretical physicists love so much?

    The idea that the designer might not have been the highest God remined me of Neoplatonism (which is deeply intertwined with Christian and Islamic theology).

    In the Neoplatonic sort of religion that was popular in late antiquity, God is conceived of impersonally as the eternal and incomprehensible Source. (They called it "the One".) This level of divinity is supposedly incomprehensible to the human mind and exceeds every human concept. The motive there was presumably to preserve divine transcendence and it's the source of theistic agnosticism and apophatic theology in the Western traditions. (India arrived at very similar ideas, probably independently. The influences between Western and Indian traditions is a subject of scholarly debate.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophatic_theology

    Then reality supposedly originated by a series of emanations from the One. In a nutshell, unchanging logical form and mathematical structure (the Platonic Forms) emanated like sunlight from the One. Then active, changing and creative cosmic mind (Plato's "Demiurge") emanated from that. And so on, as the Demiurge crafted reality in a series of steps.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoplatonism#Emanations

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

    There's still a bit of that in modern science, where different kinds of reality are explained in terms of supposedly more fundamental levels. Life is explained in terms of chemistry which is explained in terms of physics. (Physicists get uncomfortable with the question of what explains physics.)

    In late-antique and early medieval Neoplatonism the divine is conceived of as a ladder-like hierarchy where each step is explained by the next higher step. Contemplatives try to ascend that ladder in various spiritual exercises to approach and better understand the divine.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  21. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,193
    There is no better or worse argument.
    They're all as non effective as each other.

    It is not for someone to show something to another, what they already know, but choose to reject.

    Jan.
     
  22. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Why?

    Jan.
     
  23. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    ///
    Again, I cannot accept or reject what I do not know exists. I do not know any god exists.
    You perpetually show yourself a damn fool by assuming you know I know what I do not know.
    I do not even believe you know. I do not believe you believe.
    There is at least 1 argument weaker than others & that is your arrogant asinine assumption that I know what I do not know.
    A couple times, you indicated that you understand & accept this then you go right back to your absurd assumption.
    It is futile to claim someone rejects what you cannot even show exists.

    <>
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018

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