Okay, I am about 50/50 on the evolution and religous thing. I see a valid arguement on both sides. What I dont understand, and noone I ask can give me a legit answer is this, Why, if God knows, who is going to heaven and who is going to burn in hell and he knows everything before it happens, what the hell are the people who are going to burn in hell for eternity, put here for? I have suffered through trials and tribulations of all sort, and I honestly believe that if there is a heaven, that I will not go there, so why am I here? Its all very strange to me. Groove on
we are here because we exist. while existing we create our purpose and if you seek for smthing like - we' re the god' s finest creation and we exist because Yeshua loves us - then better ask Sir Loone, he' ll give you the answer you desire. All those religious typesPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! they say they know the truth including answer to your question, but really they don' t know, they are searching for it like others, but the difference from "scientific" i.e. healthy and logical thinking people, they are afraid of what they could find out, they only want to know the truth if it is pleasable to thm.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Cheers!
I like that answer, Ill have to remember thatPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Groove on
Why are we here Star: I read a zen teaching once I really loved, "If you find buddha along the path to enlightenment, KILL HIM!". The reason I like it so much is there are a lot of false messiahas out there. Some are just plain evil. Chuck Misler and his tape minsistry out of ID is one. (I use him as an example as he, personally, deliberately destroyed one of the best jobs I ever had, just because he could--this was before he "really" got religion although at the time he was preaching and teaching for a local church...(I'm sure God forgave him for destroying the lives of some 200 people for profit Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!) Personally, I made money off of him while he was doing this, and so did others who listened to me and did what I told them to do. Basically, he pulled an Enron about 20 years ago. I made a mint, but I wasn't destroying the company deliberately. There are others who want to use religion as power over others, or simply to justify their existance. They NEED the power to feel "normal". They LIVE to tell others how and why they should live as S/HE directs. I think they'd be better off as employers than preachers, but that's me. Then there is the lot that NEED/WANT someone else to tell them how to live, so THEY don't have to be responsible for themselves (these I just pity). My next door neighbor is like that. If you gave IQ tests to her and a fence post, I'm almost certain the fence post would win. You know them, you meet them every day, Dave would describe them as Joe Sixpack and Tonya Trailercourt... They are lemmings and need to point to to a book and say GOD says, YOU have to do such and such, to inflate their justifiable lack of self-esteem... It doesn't matter that the book they are following didn't exist 300 years ago, or that it has been frequently edited for political gain, (like were is the rest of the book of Ruth? In a library locked up as superfluous) for them it is the EXACT word of god WITHOUT exception with their pastor's interpretation being the ONLY correct one. Gee go figure, they get just a little hot under the collar when you remind them that THEIR religion MURDERED entire races because they could, in the name of their religion. They couldn't convert them so they murdered them for the sake of HOLY MOTHER CHURCH. Then there is another group who's spiritual head had dreams, paid someone else to write them out, becasue HE was illiterate, and then about 800 years AFTER he died, a Persian prince organized them (whilst editing freely and adding much poetry), but this too (for them) are the exact words of God... Same program, different book. Then you get into all the fringe cults of all of them, and it just gets nuts. There are aspects of ALL religions I like, and aspects of all which make no sense to me, at all. I take what works for me from all of them, and discard the horse manure, e.g: Weeping statues, Holy Wars (no war is good and only an excuse at population reduction--i'd rather have good old fashioned plague), and wailing walls. It all comes down to God is who you want Him/Her to be FOR you, if you're strong enough to ignore, withstand the onslaughts of the lemmings of life. Me? What do I say? I say, "Do what thou wilt; harm NONE"--er, that includes your kids, dogs, and puddytats, too. (I like puddytats...) Well here's another to go with Avatar's... same vein. "As all gods are homemade, it is we who give them the power to pull our strings" Aldous Huxley Mr. K.
Don' t worry , I won' t forget to kill Muhmad tooPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Cheers!
stRgrl, It’s a superb question. The Christians say that man has free will and it is up to him to choose between Jesus and the devil. But if God created men and has perfect knowledge of everything they are going to do even from the beginning of time, then exactly, why the hell did he create them in the first place. Clearly they have no free will in the matter since all their actions are perfectly pre-determined. So if the Christian God does exist then men cannot have free will and the only reason that such a god creates some to have an eternity in paradise and others to live in torture and torment forever is because he wants it that way. That to me seems unjust and particularly evil. This is explored more in the thread here that has had more views than any other – Proof that the Christian God Cannot Exist – http://www.sciforums.com/t3182/s/thread.html So why are we here? It certainly has nothing to do with Christianity and unlikely to have anything to do with gods of any type. We have evolved pretty much because the planetary conditions long ago favored biological molecules to form and attract in more combinations than any other type of molecule. These myriad variations of attractive forces resulted in early life that through endless mutations, adaptations, and natural selection, eventually led to life-forms that became self-aware – i.e. man. That is why we are here. What is our purpose? Since we weren’t created by any intelligent maker then we simply do not have a purpose. If we die out then the universe will not be noticeably affected. We are in effect irrelevant. So if there is to be a purpose for us then it is entirely up to us to create one for ourselves. Hope that helps. Cris
Avatar, Sorry, I did see your post and had intended to reference your post as agreement. I got carried away with my own creativity and forgot. But yes we are certainly in agreement. Take care Cris
Thanks Cris, that was very informative. I do agree with you in alot of things you said. If we indeed evolved, than I know we our purpose is self made, but I argue with my family all of the time(strict southern baptists) and they cant tell me anything but this, "We have free-will." But they are contradicting themselves. So thanks again. Groove on
Just say no to the Godfather Because sooner or later, we must arrive somewhere. What you have put words to in your topic post is a classic theological conundrum that is as old as omniscience, omnipotence, and redemption. It is as stale as the whispers of Immutable Will and Perfect Knowledge that still tempt the blind with subjective invitations. Jesus healed the blind; in the modern day his adherents seek to deceive them, to win them through whispers of convenience, fear, and a love that is as subjective as any human being. Modern redemptionism is a sorry state of ad hoc metaphysics, claiming at once both tradition and the innovation. Of actual innovation, what new has been written about this God? When was the last time something new became essential to the faith? Well and fine, for us, to criticize the adaptations of the past, but what of a paradigm realignment in the modern day? One of my favorite cartoons--I cannot reproduce it here as I have not found an online copy and am unwilling to slice up the Pulitzer edition of the book--is a Dave Horsey political spot from a few elections back. A man in a robe with long hair, a halo over his head, and scars on his wrists stands with his back to the reader, occupying much of the center vertical third of the frame. Around him, the faces of regional "Christian conservatives" looking on with disdain as they explain to Jesus that his policies just aren't "Christian enough" in the modern day. I can only urge you, stRgrL, to examine the basis of the heaven and hell you consider; I think it's fair to say that in any redemption-punishment scheme, you'll find a paucity of canonized evidence to support the desperate rhetoric of a dying church aiming to capture you through whatever means civilization allows. Any means. In the past, deviants and dissenters were murdered. In the modern day, factions push ostracism onto public ballots; if they can't have your conduct through volition, they will seize it through force of law. To watch the absolute depravity with which the holier-than-thou redemptionists excoriate the spirit of the world is a revelation in the truth of human nature. Fear of God is a multibillion-dollar media industry, and how many times have you heard the fire-and-brimstone crowd advance their paradigm by attacking another? Savage Muslims, heathen Communists, Catholics and Protestants, cats and dogs ... is the movement so bereft of genuine progressive force that it can only tear down in an effort to equalize? The problem is that of the heaven and hell you seem to refer to, and here I give deference to Mr K's indictment of the Christian tradition, is rooted in what is, essentially, a blackmail. God, who, as noted, knows in advance, foresaw the Fall of Man at Eden, and thus the necessity of redemption through Christ. And, yet, He still went through with it. In terms of software production, it's like releasing the beta to the market (a common practice) and expecting one patch to fix the problem (a common error amid the ephemeral tech boom; note how few of those companies still exist, as such). In terms of the developer, God designed the project, executed it, marked its flaws, and prescribed a patch. The present condition is that the designer sees that the patch has failed and thinks that screaming at the OS will make the program run better. You'll notice, in the Biblical sense, the notion of updates, upgrades, and patches go quickly by the wayside. Instead of researching the fundamental problem and developing further solutions, the sperficial problems are addressed and the fundamental patch reapplied over and over with only a decline in the statistical result. The Muslim and Mormon upgrades, apparently, are apparently like startups in the Microsoft race: they are to be bought out (converted) or destroyed. Thus the whole notion of life and faith becomes one of blackmail, with very vague and confusing instructions from the Criminal Mastermind. As Don Jehovah has it, the family is not to question, but to obey and trust. Like the hitman with inadequate instructions, sometimes the wrong guy in the black suit gets taken down. Are the inadequate instructions excuse enough to pity the unfortunate hitter's life? Don Jehovah does not even lift a finger: Depart from me, ye cursed fool .... This is what I mean when I say I think you'll find a paucity of canonized evidence for your considerations; that you have been put on the path, as such, is a deception. You have been invited, conditioned, or otherwise to accept a fear and focus that is not real. Take Wicca, for instance. There are many names for the land of the dead, the most foreboding being perhaps Tir na 'Og (I can't even remember what, exactly, it means; it's just a gray-sounding word in this example), the brightest being the Summerland. It is well and fine to say that all good witches will dance in the Summerland, but honestly, I've never heard what comes of the waer-loga, the oath-breakers, the warlocks. Of course, in a less cohesive discipline such as Wicca, one encounters various speculations from straight reincarnation to Nirvana to attainment of Universal Secrets. Thus I suggest to you, first, Who says the redemptive scheme must punish or deprive? and, secondly, Who says the redemptive scheme is necessarily true? In the end, nobody can say either definitively, and we might look to the heaven and hell to which you refer and consider for a moment the most common post-Christian heaven and hell. In other words, where do these ideas come from, if the paucity I've asserted is correct? They come from frightened, desperate, undereducated people who live in fear of spectres invented rather than step forth and face the life they have before them. They seek tradition to justify them because they refuse reality. In the end, the heaven and hell you refer to may well be a psychiatric symptom. And so I urge you to dispense with such notions as redemptionism. After all, how is it that, in the case of, say, religion, the masses are right, while misfiring so consistently in other judgments made en masse? For instance, are Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boys, and whoever the flavor of the day is really and truly constitute the best modern music has to offer? Was Seinfeld really the best television had to offer? In the case of The Simpsons, I might accept that. And there exists a certain distinction. Is all popular conception pure shite? Hardly. But if you pick up enough junk along the side of the road, some of it's bound to be valuable. But I just watched a disaster of a concert last week from a band--who gets a free pass here--that claimed to wish to change the way pop music was presented to its audience. Aside from sound troubles--and those I'll forgive in the grander scheme--the band actually did just fine. The show works in other places, but what happened here is that people bought their tickets and forgot to expect something different. They stood around, wondering where the traditional Seattle show was; they didn't want this pseudo-British, post-rave event they found themselves at. One of the finest DJ's in the business was nearly reduced to snow, the audience was so frosty. In this case, the mass judgement was a rejection of what people had bought in for. Except for the freestyle portion, they actually got what they paid for, and just couldn't admit it, loosen up, or enjoy themselves. Written reviews would suggest that the band has no future after that show; here I disagree with such a pop-tripe conception. To shorten the point: do you really trust the result of the common paradigm? If so, all I can do is point again to my excoriation of redemptionism as spiritual blackmail. If not, I can only urge you to forsake such considerations. Quite obviously, stRgrL, you have a mind that sees a certain degree of detail. Trust that mind. Let the trials of the past contribute to the triumphs to come; as tacky as that sounds, it is much easier to accomplish if one is not consistently badmouthing their own self in order to find a way to pay the extortion. As you noted that you're split 50-50 on the issue, a degree that, honestly, I do not envy, I submit to you that, in limiting yourself to the two issues, you have already surrendered to the one. Is there a heaven and a hell? Okay, there's a 50-50 throw. Whose heaven and hell is it? Ah ... now there is born a mighty conundrum. Thus I urge you to dispense with considerations of theological blackmail. The mysteries of God only blossom when the fear is wiped away. A dazzling adventure or a stoic resignation--it's all in what you make it. Why adopt a God that would condemn you for living as He has prescribed? Sometimes the lost ones do come home alive. Should God punish them for their trials? Or just be happy they're home? Thus, with no better answer, I submit that you are here because we are the eyes and ears of the Universe; what you see, it sees; what you know, it knows; when you look into the Universe, the Universe is seeing itself. Perhaps it's not a comfort, but the Universe would never have known your trials without you, nor would It ever have come to realize what wisdom such trials have given It through you. If there is an afterlife, I'd say your gifts qualify for admission. There will, most likely, never be another you; the circumstances of the event we might call stRgrL will most likely never occur in the Universe again; and, should they find a way, would they truly be the same, or would they come after, or separate from? The Universe will never again know Itself as It does through you. thanx much, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
You do not know because YOU are already BURNING! Ah, right. Vewwy vewwy Calvinistic. Some people are born 'saved' and some are born 'damned'. Then you get into the question of whether the elect (born saved) can loose thier salvation.....and your head hurts..... There are several explanations: God creates the hellbound to test the faithful. God does not make anybody damned, because we have free will. The correct answer is, of course, Cthulu dosen't care. He thinks you would make a tasty snack. You exist to feed an interdimensional monster. (Well, it works!)
Tiassa Woooow! Thanks for sharing. Your use of words and knowledge just amazes me. I have to read it a few more times JUST to make sure I understand it all. I have to admit, reading your post, made me feel kinda... insignificant :bugeye: I think thats the word Im looking for. Anyhoo, thanks againPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Oh, and another thing, I dont envy my 50/50 outlook on things either. It drives me friggin crazy sometimesPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Groove on
I like Xev's answers. There are also many other possibilities. 1. God gave humans free will, so those bound for Hell have chosen to not worship Him. 2. There is no God. 3. The only "god" is the chaotic force of the universe, which has no sentience or awareness of anything going on. 4. Satan gets his way a lot and many people are pulled into Hell. 5. Because of human's sinful nature, they are not receptive to God's calling. 6. God simply didn't choose to save certain people because He can do whatever He wants. Anyway, who's gonna stop Him? :bugeye: 7. Noone knows! 8. Quit caring! Here's my personal opinion: 1. If you are a christian, (like me) then look in the Bible and do some other research as to why God has let people go to Hell, and how you are to be saved. Just because your family doesn't have the answers, doesn't mean the answers don't exist. You just need to find the right sources. (mainly the Bible) 1. If you are not a christian, then believe whatever you want, I guess. (I am simply telling you this because I do not know all of the absolute answers of the universe without my faith.) --In this case, just talk to some of the atheists on the board, or if you prefer, talk to people of other religions. I'm not sure how to guide you in a "walk without Christ," since I am a christian. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! sorry if I wasn't much help here. -Ben
You are here to multiply.... After all, is it not this what the human race has done for thousands of years?. We marry, have children, create our own missory or happiness, are either moral or amoral, our destiny is determined by our desires, wether those desires be evil, or good is up to you. In truth though we are here to procreate. It is one natural phenomena of our genes, sooner or later your going to want to have children, no matter whom you are. Some go against thier natures by joining silly religious zealots, other just seem not to find the right partner, however deep down we all want to procreate, from the first sign of puberty, on to almost our entire lives. Other than that: "Be happy and prosper, oh yea!! don't forget to multiply"Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
That could be like asking: “If someone as been found guilty of a murder, not only by eye witness accounts, but a full confession by the said person, why is there a need for a trial? The answer is, because there is a judicial system which has to apply to everybody, equally...... That's well and good Jan, but why are we on this Earth to prove ourselves worthy of being in heaven when God already knows whether or not we are? If we go by what most believe God can do, then he will have seen and judged our entire lives before we are even concieved. Why then is there a need for this "in between"? Couldn't he just as easily look into the future, see what kind of life we would live then send us to heaven or hell straight off the bat?
Ok, so why doesn't he do the same for adults that he does for children? If he can see the universe in its entirety, past present and future, he can see every single choice we make in our lives. This life would have no purpose at all, because no matter what we do on earth god already knows whether we will devote our lives to good or evil.
