Why cry?

Discussion in 'Biology & Genetics' started by Randwolf, Jan 10, 2011.

  1. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    Why have other species not got this adaptation?

    Humans are unique in that we have that very big brain in a very gregarious species. We use the brain for subtle social interaction, among other things. This permits a wide range of ways to socially signal.
     
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  3. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    They cry for many reasons, some have already been discussed, but another reason is because they are sad which can be brought on by many reasons as well. Death, the loss of a loved one and watching someone in pain would be a few examples of this.
     
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  5. SilentLi89 Registered Senior Member

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    Don't most mammalian and avian babies make overly annoying sounds when then they want or need something? Baby birds start chirping everytime the wind blows and I nearly went insane searching for a litter of loud meowing kittens, they were so annoying. But I guess if the noises they made weren't annoying their parents would probably just ignore them.

    Anyway I've always thought crying was a type of stress release for humans beyond infancy. Whenever someone is overwhelmed by an emotion (negative or positive) and/or by pain they tend to cry. I know that I can keep myself from crying if I do some other stress releasing activity such as screaming, punching something, or running...etc. I think it is more than just a learned social behavior and probably has a strong genetic or insticntive component.
     
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  7. SilentLi89 Registered Senior Member

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    But then why do people cry at weddings and graduations or when they see their child for the first time and other "happy" occassions?
     
  8. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    I'm a feminist, I don't have a problem with it.
     
  9. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    I agree with you cosmic, but how do these responses convey an evolutionary advantage, in your opinion? I.e., Why would these reactions make our species more likely to survive over the long run? Or are you saying that they are merely social constructs similar to other "rituals", such as some of the religious mumbo-jumbo people practice?
     
  10. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    So am I, depending on how it's defined. It's just that I've been jumped more than once on these boards for what seemed to be a fairly innocuous comment. But I'm an equal opportunity smart ass, I don't discriminate about which groups I insult - including the socioeconomic groups I happen to be a member of.

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  11. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Great question! This adds a whole new dimension to the question. To be honest, I hadn't even thought about this aspect. It's even more perplexing, wonder why in the world we do that?
     
  12. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    As I said before, it is social signalling. We cry as children when we are hurt, since that is needed to call for adult attention when it is required. The more independent we are, the less we cry. Thus, as we mature, the tendency to cry reduces, as that form of social signal becomes less needed.

    However, there are some situations when crying as a social signal in adulthood is valuable. When mourning, to show we are, in fact, sensitive and caring, and therefore worthwhile beings. Crying at weddings is a very female thing, and I suspect it is a bonding signal between those women.

    A woman crying also has a very definite effect on men, making the male more protective. Again - a social signal.
     
  13. SilentLi89 Registered Senior Member

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    Young children cry for attention as do other animals. They gradually stop when they stop getting the attention they desire. Their parents tell them to stop instead of kissing their finger like they used to and no one likes to be ridiculed for crying over a scraped knee in jr high. If crying is only for social signalling then it wouldn't make sense to feel like crying or to make yourself cry when you're alone, no one is going to comfort you. When people (both men and women) are too stressed out they burst into tears for no apparent reason to observers. People don't even know how to comfort them and for the most part they can't. But they have a good cry and then they are much better. Crying for both children and adults seems more like a stress release valve to me. If you release stress in other ways you are less likely to explode into tears. Not that it doesn't have social components as well, but those can vary from culture to culture.
     
  14. kevinalm Registered Senior Member

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    Vocalization and facial expression for social signaling I'll buy, but why tears? Any thoughts? The only thing I can think of off hand is pheromones.
     
  15. Saquist Banned Banned

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    I think crying is one those social interactions that evolutions really can't logically explain because many animals are in similar situation but haven't developed anything of the sort. No emotional connection to the tear ducts where human infants do so instantly.

    Pain seems to mean more than just damage to humans.
    Animals respond to pain in by means of flight of fight. Always.
    Humans are often demobilized by pain, neither fight nor flight.
    The emotional connection to pain seems to indicate a superior biological reaction at play, thought...
     
  16. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    I believe that tears were meant to clear and keep the eyes clear to see better with but as humans developed they just found more usages for them like has been discussed. I do not think that they are for survival but are useful for other things like venting sadness, pain and help like babies do.
     
  17. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    This is where you have two distinct paths as to why we cry, one is the socio-psychology factor and the other is obviously down to physical reasons.

    Obviously a lot of the posts here are concentrating on the socio-psychology, what they won't necessarily take into consideration is how the psychology would of started. It would have likely initially been paired with physical.

    [Paraphrased from memory from a BBC documentary]

    Babies brains have more interconnections per neuron than that of an adult, this is because the brain works out how to wire itself during infancy and those connections that are used less are eventually disconnected.

    This means from the perspective of a baby; light, colour, shadows, sound and even sensation are potentially blurred. There observations of the world can only ever really be mirrored by the observations of someone on a substance like L.S.D. (That's my reasoning not the BBC's)

    This also means that pain receptors might be triggered by this blur as they attempt to dis-assimilate what it is they are looking at, and the pain triggers tears.

    This is where they establish the socio-psychology of how tears can be advantageous. As every time a baby cries a mother will attempt to assess and resolve the problem. In some instances too much nurturing at this point causes more problems than good and potentially identifies a projected attitude that the child might succumb to in the future. (The child might become ever demanding and spoilt if every cry causes the mother to rush to them. So this in turn could effect their ability to be independent and constantly be in need of reliance upon their siblings etc.)

    Tears still compliment the sense of pain, and can be used to cleanse the eye of dust particles or toxins as a physical function.

    You'll find in men the socio-psychology changes with age, initial statements of "Being a mommy's boy" or a "Cry baby" soon shifts their usage of tears from getting what they want to being seen as sign of weakness or inability to be independent, and definitely not "Manly".

    While the girls don't suffer these tactics, instead they are more open to feelings and sensation and this is increased further by the various differences between genders and how the body develops.

    In a nutshell, men try to develop an immunity to some forms of feeling that would initially have stimulated tears, where women are passionate about just about everything.

    A perception of how such emotions and their socio-psychological differences per gender can benefit us is:

    A man tends to be portrayed stereotypically as a bedrock in crisis conditions, while a woman can become emotional, however women will find it easier to nurture and care for a child compared to the majority of men which potentially feel inept with dealing with children but attempt not to let it show.
    (Women might talk amongst each other about children and other various intimate things openly, where men obviously would rather not discuss stuff)
     
  18. tantalus Registered Senior Member

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  19. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    It's a form of communication. Only social species communicate, although in many non-social species mothers and babies may communicate with each other.
    In a non-social species, the baby tells the mother that something is wrong. In a pack-social species, one member of the pack tells the others that he is injured; the pack mates depend on and care for one another for the strength of the pack, so they will try to figure out how to help. In a herd-social species the level of care between the herd mates is minimal, but still if one tells his neighbor that he's standing on his foot, he will move.
    Most pack-social species communicate with their pack-mates in some way. No other species has as well-developed vocal organs as humans so I doubt that any can approach our ability to cry, but many can whine or whimper or somehow make it known that something is wrong.

    Well as an aviculturist I have to admit that parrots can mimic the sound of a baby crying--a little too well and a little too loud sometimes--but it's not a sound they make naturally to express discomfort.
    Babies cry from birth; many actually cry at birth. It is not a learned behavior. In a sense, it's the first attempt at vocalization, which ultimately becomes speech.
    I just read an article in the Washington Post, logging the discovery of pheromones in women's tears. They cause a strong dropoff of testosterone in men, making them more likely to be sympathetic and collegial rather than romantic. Interestingly these are only found in tears that result from actual crying, rather than something like an allergy or an eye injury; they are the result of a complex central nervous system process.

    No one is saying that men's tears do not also contain pheromones. It is just much easier for women to cry on command; for example, several of them could name a movie that would make them cry automatically. Testing men and perhaps children will be next.
    I think the points I make above support this hypothesis.
     
  20. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Really? Do you happen to have a link to this article handy or know of any others that offer scientific evidence of pheromones in humans? Last I heard, there had been no definitive studies indicating communication amongst humans via pheromones.

    Personally, I have long believed that they must exist, their presence is readily accepted in many other species, why would we be special? For example, I always thought this the most plausible explanation for the anomaly causing the synchronization of menstrual cycles amongst women who cohabitate. What else could explain the phenomenon?

    I know I can go Googling, but if you happen to have read something on human pheromones recently (beyond the Post article) I would greatly appreciate the head-start.


    Good point, and poor phrasing on my part. Whilst this seems self-evident for infants, I was speaking primarily of the adult version. For example, many babies suck their thumbs, but this behavior tends to disappear as we grow older. Similarly, the frequency of crying may lessen in adulthood, however we all still cry from time to time, now matter how old we become. See the difference? This is where I was directing the "learned" at.


    Thanks much for your input, I tend to agree with everything you said. I was curious as to what others thought when I created the thread and your perception seems to be quite in line with my own. However, you are (not surprisingly) able to state it much more eloquently.

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    Last edited: Jan 13, 2011
  21. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    I can explain the synchronising of menstrual cycles. According to the report I read, it is actually a myth. Some researchers saw synchronising purely as a result of coincidence and jumped to conclusions.
     
  22. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    Link? I admit I only know of this from personal experience and anecdotal tales, but...

    When I was quite young (17) I lived for some time with my first wife's family - counting sisters, aunts and shirt-tail relatives there was a total of 14 women (well, 12 post pubescent) and all 12 ended up cycling together. Coincidence? Furthermore, one of the older sisters left the "compound" (our colloquial reference to the mini-trailer park we all owned and lived in) for about 6 months, came back out of "synch", yet was back on schedule with the rest in 3 months. Being one of only two males living there, we were quite sensitive to the issue, believe me. Hunting / fishing trip time, ya' know?

    Since then my personal experience includes two "Three's Company" type roommate situations and many, many first-hand tales from female friends. Same results. If this is a myth, it blows away Bigfoot and the LochNess monster by a long shot. Worse than giant hyraxes.

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    (Three's Company, for those of you not from the US and/or not old enough to remember, refers to a TV comedy show about one man and two women living together platonically)


    Anyway, I will check Snopes, and again if you have any scientific studies refuting this I would greatly appreciate the links. Based on my personal experience, this is akin to trying to tell someone from neolithic times that the Earth is not flat...
     
  23. Skeptical Registered Senior Member

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    Here is a reference.

    http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2429/does-menstrual-synchrony-really-exist

    Occam's razer. The simplest explanation is often the best. For menstrual synchronisation, the simplest explanation is that it does not exist. There is a problem here, of course, in that this is something that, contrary to first appearances, is not easy to measure.

    Another problem : No two women are likely to have menstrual cycles the same length. How can they synchronise when one is 26 days and the other 30?

    However, urban myths tend to be very persistent. Even after they are shown to be incorrect, lots of people cling to them, and quote outdated references.
     

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