Why do atheists ask for evidence for God?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by VitalOne, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Until you realise that there IS a default rational position then you will continue to struggle with this debate, and will continue to blindly believe in the existence of non-material things.

    The mental brick doesn't - but the cause of the image (neurons, etc) do.

    I am NOT making a positive claim beyond it being the default rational position.
    I am not saying "It is definitely material".
    How many times do I have to say that?!

    For the last time - you obviously do NOT understand the realm of rational thought, or where and how conclusions are drawn.
    Rational conclusions are based on the EXISTING EVIDENCE.
    YOU are the one going against the rational conclusion.
    YOU have to provide the evidence - or your conclusion (supported by zero evidence) is deemed IRRATIONAL.
    Get it?


    Do you know how the mental image of the brick is formed in the brain?
    No.
    Nor do I.
    Yet YOU immediately claim it is non-material in nature (i.e. in cause).
    I do not make this claim.
    I am sticking with the rational position that it is material in nature until evidence exists to counter this position.

    THIS IS WHY WE ASK FOR EVIDENCE.

    What of this do you NOT understand.
    Every post you make just reaffirms your lack of understanding of what is and what is not rational.

    No. We didn't.
    I made the statement that ANYTHING can be claimed to be "self-evident" and thus makes self-evident evidence irrelevant.

    To you consciousness is "self-evidently" non-material.
    To me consciousness is "self-evidently" material.

    Understand?

     
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  3. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    I am certain beyond doubt that I have neither explicitly or implicitly assigned any characteristics to God, other than to use this as a name for a possible/plausible first cause. That is as far as I go.

    I am a devout agnostic. I take my agnosticism very seriously. I am quite definite about my uncertainty; I am resolute in my irresolution. Thus, when I see someone state there is no evidence, then I I take a stand. Had the remark been "There is no proof", or "There is no hard evidence", or "There is no evidence that would propel us strongly to conclude", then I should not posted my views on the matter.
     
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Understood - but then the evidence presented is NOT evidence for anything (i.e. not for God) other than the claim that there was a "first cause".

    God is of course a possibility as being the "first cause" - but the evidence for "first cause" is not evidence for God - UNLESS God is purely defined as "first cause" - with nothing else, no other characteristics, entailed to it.
    However, evidence for "first cause" is clearly not evidence AGAINST God (assuming that one characteristic of God is "first cause").


    Is a molecule of water evidence of an ocean?
    It is not evidence AGAINST an ocean, but is it really evidence FOR?
    I say not.
     
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  7. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Noted.

    How is being called 'childish' any more a ad-hominem than being called 'irrational' based purely on ones belief?

    Jan.
     
  8. Satyr Banned Banned

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    This has got to be the more pathetic display of the type of mind attracted to simplistic reasoning, I have ever come across…even here in this den of retardation.

    :shrug:
     
  9. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Sarkus,

    And I have never said that consciousness is NOT matter.

    Surely that is not a matter for you to decide.
    What you're proposing here, is close-minded, and I do not intend that as an insult, but an observation on this statement.
    If, as you say, there is no reason for non-matter to exist, and we adhere to that, how will we know if it really does exist?

    Because you know that science is a study of the natural world, which is material by nature.
    The actual heart of the matter regarding this thread, is why do atheists ask for evidence of God, when they know that God is not a material being.

    I'm afraid not, it is simply a case of stubborness on the part of such atheists, whose intention is not to actually debate fair and square, but to win by any means necessary, imo.

    You are effectively saying, because it has not been (scientifically) evidenced, it CAN NOT exist, hense no reason to believe it exists.

    No. The heart of the thread enquires why you ask for evidence (scientific) of God.
    Your answer seems to be, because there is no evidence of his existence, missing the entire point.

    Goodbye, and good luck with your arguments.
     
  10. grover Registered Senior Member

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    Lack of evidence + dogma = default position.
    So for the person that believes that something can't come from nothing and there appears to be a teleological principle at work in nature intelligent design is the default position. They are able t o come up with rational explanations and examples that back up ther position. The problem is that umlitmately there is no evidence for their position and no way of testing it and therefore is not science, it is a philosophical position. It is exactly the same with consciousness - there is no evidence and no testable hypothesis.
    Right, the brick itself does not appear to be a physical thing. So, if one is actually going to claim that it is a physical thing they have to provide a rational explanation beyond just "neurons do it" and evidence that is provided by a testable hypothesis.
    BUt you said the default rational position is one of materilaity. The whole reason science is necessary is because our commonsense notions are so often wrong. If they weren't science wouodn't be necessary.
    Exactly, there is none in this instance.
    I do get it. You admit that the mental brick does not appear to be physical(see above). You then claim it is actually physical but can provide no evidence.

    No, my claim is that it appears to be immaterial (i.e., has no common features with a material brick).
    I do not make this claim.
    This is materialist dogma.
    This is why I am asking for evidence.
    Every post you make just reaffirms that you think it s bad for other people to draw conlcusions withut actual evidence (intelligent desing) yet it is okay for you to do so (consciousness is an emergent phenomenon).

    Okay, then why didn't you diasagree with this the first time I posted it? "1)The only evidence for any subjective experience is actually self-evident and there is in fact no objective evidence. For instance dreaming, we really only know that people dream because we have had that experience ourselves. Imagine if only you dreamed and everyone else just had dreamless sleep, you would have no way of actually providing actual evidence that you dream. You do in fact have no way of providing actual evidence, you just accpet it that others dream because they say they dream and so do you, but there is no actual objective evidence. ANd, that is how it is of all subjective experience. So, it should come as no surprise if I make a claim pertaining to consciousness which is based on self-evidence. "

    No, you are claiming that the self-evidently immaterial nature of the brick (see above) is actually caused by the brain. There is nothing self-evident about this which is why you have to provide evidence.

    Interestingly material things are said to made out of immaterial things.
    Not entirely true. Besides, what is under question is the self-evidently immaterial nature of mental things (you already said the mental brick does not have material features).
    You're right I don't. The whole point of science is not to make assumptions. To have evidence. No you are making assupmtions without evidence and saying it is okay for you to do it with materialist dogma but not okay for ithers to do it with their dogma (intelligent design). I most definitely do not get it.

    What is it.

    Well, seeing as thats the exact issue we're talking about I don't see what we disagree on then.

    Well your reasoning is good I'll give you that - it's definitely on par with the best defenders of intelligent design.
    No, I do get it. In fact I've decided to adopt both your view that consciousness is an emergent phenomenon of the brain despite the fact that there is no evidence and no testable hypotheses and I am also going to adopt the intelligent design view despite the fact that there is no evidence or testable hypotheses.

    No, I get it. My universe is a much less confusing place now that I'm allowed to adopt views without evidence. Thank you.

    Oh no! You just lost me again. I thought we didn't need evidence. Crap,does this mean I have to start demanding evidence for things again and stop believing that consciousness is an emergent phenomenon?

    Sarkus, let me try to explain what I've been trying to demonstrate.
    1) There is at least one phenomenon we are aware of for which no objective evidence can be provided - consciousness. This is to demonstrate at the minimum why always demanding objective evidence might not be appropriate (especially since, according to Christianity, the Kingdom of God is within us (despite the fact that both atheists and fundamentalists seem to insist it is somewhere in space).
    2) Atheists too have metaphysical beliefs about the universe which can not be supported with evidence.
    3) There is at least some philosophical difficulty with stating that consciousness is simply material. If consciousness isn't material it leaves open as possible some subjective claims of religion. I know you will acknowledge the possibilities. What I don't think you will acknowledge is that science does consider it a foregone conlclusion that mind is nothing but material brain despite the fact that science always needs evidence and there is none in this instance. Which also shows that a metaphysical system of belief has developed around science based on faith (abscence of evidence).
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2007
  11. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Should we also consider the possibility that green lemmings, with Austrian accents, have cornered the market in DVDs?
     
  12. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    You do not seem to understand either rationality or logic.

    The fact that the brick might not appear to be physical is not grounds to take non-materiality as the default.

    I do not claim it is - I claim the rational position is that it is physical in nature (i.e. generated through entirely physical interactions).
    But you seemingly can not grasp the rational aspect of it, nor what that means.

    Why have you suddenly changed your argument to one of "appears to be immaterial"?

    No - it is rationality.

    For non-material things?
    Or for material things?

    For the last time (how many times do I end up saying that yet continually get drawn in to beating my head against a brick wall!)... I am not making the claim - I am saying it is the default rational position.

    I said it was irrelevant to the discussion. Which it is.

    What is clearly not self-evident for you is seemingly self-evident for others.
    This is why being "self-evident" is irrelevant.

    That will merely change the understanding of what matter is - not evidence for non-materiality.

    The quality of "self-evident" is irrelevant. For every thing that is "self-evident" to you I can claim something else to be "self-evident" to me.

    Clearly you don't get it.



    Pick up anything you want. That is evidence of material things existing.

    Because YOU jump on board the "non-material" as being the cause - where there is NO EVIDENCE!

    With no evidence for the non-material there is only one place rationally, on the evidence availble, to conclude where the answer lies: material cause / nature.

    We know material things exist - we can observe, weight, measure them. This is evidence for the existence of material things.

    We do NOT know non-material things exist.

    In the absence of this evidence for non-material things the default rational position is that the thing in question is material!

    I am not sure I can explain it any simpler for you.

    Please don't insult me so.

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    No - you clearly don't - and your sarcasm is misplaced.


    One can not provide evidence for that which we as yet do not understand.
    Some do - undoubtedly. But please indicate some examples to support this statement?
    I agree with all of this, although in the absence of evidence it is irrational to go against the rational position (which is one of material). Do you not accept this?

    This is why I/we ask for evidence in such debates - primarily to highlight the irrational nature of the beliefs being held.

    I understand your point, but it is not one I hold with.
    In the absence of immediate evidence one way or another, science goes with the rational position from all the surrounding evidence.
    However, science remains open to any and all evidence, whether it counters their existing rational position or not.
    Science is not about beliefs.
    Scientists may hold evidence-less beliefs - but that is "unscientific" and stems from personal pride in their theories etc.
     
  13. Jan Ardena OM!!! Valued Senior Member

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    What does this have to do with discussing the nature of consciousness?

    Jan.
     
  14. grover Registered Senior Member

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    We can at least agree that there is a difference bewteen a mental brick and a real brick right? Which is to say that the mental brick is not a material brick. Which is to say that the mental is not material.
    I haven't changed my argument. I've been using the term self-evident the entire time.

    There is no difference between default position and making a claim. You are basically making a claim that everything we have proved so far has been physical and therefore everything should be assumed to be physical. This despite the fact that there is a difference between a mental brick and a physical brick. In other words when a phenomenon that appears not to follow the normal pattern of what we consider physical you just dismiss this and say it is actually physical because everything else we have provided evidence for is physical. Materialism of the gaps.
    No it isn't. I demonstrated why the only evidence we have of consciousness is actually self-evidence. There is no objective way of showing it exists.

    Do you have dreams? can you prove it objectively? It is self-evident to you that you dream yet can provide no objective evidence. It is self-evident that when you are dreaming those things you are dreaming are not real physical objects. If you are going to say that they have a physical basis you have to provide evidence. That is the precise difference. We both agree that material exists and that evidence can be presented for material things. WHy then can do evidence be presented for subjective experience even thought we both know that it exists?

    As far as I can tell self-evidence only pertains to the mental. We both know that objective evidence can be provided for the material. Which is another thing which confuses me about why you are claiming consciousness is material but can provide no evidence that it is. If it really is just straight-forward material why is there no evidence?

    WE both agree that material things exist. The specifc uestin you are referring to here is what is the evidence that consciousness is material?
    We both agree that material exists.
    We both agree that objective evidence can be presented for the material.
    We both agree that mental phenomenon as we directly experience it has no material qualities. Yet, you insist that it is simply material even though you can provide no evidence.

    No, we both agree that a mental brick is not a physical brick. WHich is to say there is a difference between the mental and the physical. You also agree that evidence can be provided for material phenomenon. Yet you can provide no evidence that a mental brick is really just material. Your're right - I don't fucking get it.
    Exactly. Yet you agree taht mental phenomenon don't in and of themselves have physical characteristics.
    I'm starting to think you really have bricks in your head!
    Good point brickhead.
    The problem is that we both agree that there is a difference between a mental brick and a physical brick.

    And I understand yours.
    Okay, the immediate evidence we have is of the mental brick. I think we have both already agreed there is a difference between a dream brick and a physical brick. To me this seems to leave the door open that it is an immaterial phenomenon, especially in light of the fact that the only evidence of a dream brick is self-evidence (you can't provide objective evidence of it) and as of yet no objective evidence can be provided (even though we know form other material phenomenon that objective evidence can be provided for material phenomenon in general). But you seem to want to shut this door by saying that we can assume it is material. This assumption is what is called scientific materialism. It is a metaphysical position seemingly based on science except for the problem that science always needs evidence. So, if nothing else explain why this metaphysical assumption without evidence is different than other metaphysical assumptions.

    Agreed.

    (Note: this is getting pretty jumbled. You obviously disagree with much of what I'm saying, what is the primary disagreement?)
     
  15. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Yes.
    It leaves the door open for me also.

    This is where you miss the argument...
    You seem to jump on to the idea that it IS immaterial.
    i.e. You claim it is non-material - yet have no evidence.

    I am happy that there is the possibility it is non-material.
    However, the RATIONAL position is one of materiality - as that is where ALL the evidence lies.

    The fact that material science can not (yet) provide answers is not enough to support something for which there is no evidence.

    But do not confuse this rational position for me saying that, without question, it IS material. I am not saying that.
    I am saying, in the absence of other evidence, the rational position is that it is material.
    Rational positions change with every new piece of evidence.
    Treat evidence rationally and you get a rational conclusion.
    Without evidence you can only reach irrational conclusions.
    But bear in mind that irrational conclusions CAN ultimately be shown to be correct.


    You are being too precise in what you see as evidence...

    Example:
    Behind a door I place either a real Irish Leprechaun or a football.
    Which do you rationally think I have put there?

    Hopefully your answer is the football.
    Why? Because you have NO evidence for the existence of an Irish Leprechaun. So the only alternative, rationally, is the football.

    Do you follow this?

    If so:
    Consciousness is either material or non-material.
    Which do you rationally think it is?

    Several, I think...

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    1. Your failure to understand my position as merely the rational position - not as the claim of fact you seem to think it is.

    2. Your willingness to abandon rational thought and claim as fact something for which there is no evidence, whether it be non-material things and/or God.

    3. Your apparent incapability to accept that a lack of understanding of the vast complexity of the brain is not a rational reason to consider consciousness as non-material.

    Maybe we are still talking cross-purpose with differing understandings of what is material or not.
    To me a dream is, rationally, purely material.
    But then so is any subjective experience - emotion, thoughts etc. All, rationally, are just the result of the vastly complex interactions within the brain.
    Yes - it might be nigh on impossible to ever understand even the remotest parts of what consciousness really is, how it is formed etc.

    And philosophically it may be easier to regard consciousness as utterly separate and "non-material" to help us understand it better...

    But these are not reasons enough to believe that it really is - as there remains no evidence either for that or for ANY non-material things.

    It will remain a possibility until proven otherwise.
    As will God.
    But until then the rational position falls in favour of where all the evidence currently resides.
     
  16. Enterprise-D I'm back! Warp 8 Mr. Worf! Registered Senior Member

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    True that Ophi, but once you start a proposition, you should continue to a conclusion. Science does that. The assumption that god exists does not.

    No, stating that creation was the process at all is hearsay.

    How does this leave us with "creation"?

    I'm glad you know agents need not be conscious or intelligent. Which means "Intelligent Design" isn't your belief necessarily?

    I tend to think that IF any intelligent entity put together the universe he deserves a hearty and heartfelt 'thank you' and a break out of the champagne and the good china. Ability does not a title make.

    No you didn't lol I didn't say you did, I just threw in that point for completeness

    I agree that the universe is evidence of a precipitation/reaction of some sort that started the Universe. I do not agree that the existence of the universe is however evidence of any coherent entity. There is simply not enough evidence of that.

    I understand both terms, however, I think it's being used interchangeably dependant on the threads I read, so I ignore the differences for readability, I was just pointing that out.

    EW! That's like calling me a closet heterosexual!

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    At any rate YOU seemed to be the one supporting the concept of some sort of god creating the universe.

    LOL

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  17. grover Registered Senior Member

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    We have no objective evidence for any subjective experiences, which is actually part of the evidence of why it is immaterial, because we know we can provide evidence of the material because we have in the past done so, yet we can provide no evidence of subjective experience despite the fact that we know through direct experience that it exists. Secondly, we know there is a difference between metnal phenomenon and physical phenomenon so at least, based upon this, the self-evident position seems to be that mental phenomenon are not physical.
    There is no evidence for subjective experience at all and yet we all know subjective experience is a fact.
    Part of the point is that no evidence can be provided for subjective experience and yet we know it is a real phenomenon.

    But you are making it sound like here that I can't make a rational conclusion that consciousness is immaterial. I think I have.
    Just a question. Why in your opinion is it rational to accept that other people dream?

    The problem with this analogy is that both the football and the leprechaun is that they are both material. Our comparison is between the material and the immaterial.

    Okay, I see what you're saying. But, I think you are making it sound like the one and only rational position.
    I'm pretty sure I've been trying to make a case based on rationality. When I start telling you that consciousness should be accpeted as immaterial because some religous text says so than I will accpet the notion that I've abandoned rationality. I haven't made any appeals based on faith.


    3.
    I think what I've done is taken as a starting poing that the only evidence we have for all subjective experience is self-evidence (which means 1st person direct observation). Second, I've tried to demonstrate that their is an obvious difference between a physical object and a mental representation of that object. I am open to the fact that science could one day show that consciousness is created by the brain. Right now all we really have to go on is our direct observations (which are actually acceptable in science as well -i.e., microscopes, telescopes. The only difference is that consciousness is not subject to third party verification (i.e., objective evidence).
    Well, one thing I find interesting is that in this scientific day in age people seem for some reason seem to think their subjective expereince is unimportant. For some reason because it isn't subject to third person verification it should at this time more or less be ignored as something from which we can gain understanding of the universe. Any system of thought that leaves subjective experience out of the equation of describing the universe must necessarily be incomplete, but that is exactly the current state of affairs as far as I can tell.

    I don't think you have the only rational position. And there are serious problems with just lumping in consciousness, which seems not to fit the mold of simply physical, with all other material phenomena which science has so far been able to explain.
     
  18. Wisconsin Crippler Registered Member

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    New to this board. And I didn't feel like reading through all the posts.

    Just wanted to throw my POV out there.

    I consider myself an atheist, but I use the term loosely, because there is an element of atheism that is just as arrogant and dangerous as relgions. I personally feel that my lack of faith in a higher power, is by no means superior to someone elses faith. Alot of atheists take a superiorist attitude towards believers, and I feel that it is no different than people of religion feeling superior to other peoples religions. And atheism without tolerance would be every bit as dangerous as militant Islam. Maybe more so
     
  19. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Good thing atheism has an inherent quality of doubt and tolerance.
     
  20. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    I am not going to address each of your points that addressed one of my points which addressed one of your points, or we shall be here all year. I shall pick out a couple however.
    Of course it's not my ****ing belief. If I was in favour of capital punishment I'd give serious consideration to imposing it on promoters of the concept. (And please.....that is an example of the literary device known as hyperbole. Don't try to prove from this that I am intolerant.)

    All I have been doing in this thread is to dispute the statement that there is no evidence. I find that to be a statement that is indefensible on any scientific basis; I maintain that those who make it are not thinking things through; I contend that if scientists, or those with a scientific background, make this statement then they are following dogma - they think they are defending science, when they are undermining it.

    .
    Again, you fail to see the vital distinction between evidence and proof. (And I am not forgetting that in science all 'proof' is provisional; all conclusions are subject to change.
    I don't think the evidence is very good, but it is evidence. My scientific objectivity requires that I acknowledge it as evidence. That is what I am doing.
     
  21. peta9 Registered Senior Member

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    The existence of this universe or even our consciousness is not evidence of a creator but could be just some sort of process we can't understand. I believe consciousness is neutral in it's purest form and the concept of an entity negates, belittles, malforms and is brought down to our narrow understanding of it. Existence could be a stage in the process to eventual oblivion.
     
  22. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    That is certainly consistent with your previously expressed views, such as mass euthenasia being preferable to living in misery. I like consistency.
     
  23. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    No - this is where you start down your irrational conclusion.

    Just because we can not explain something does NOT make it false.
    We can not (yet) explain consciousness in terms of material, but that does not mean it is evidence for non-material.
    To think otherwise is irrational.


    Again - an irrational conclusion.
    The rational conclusion is that mental phenomena are a different type of material phenomena to matter that can be held in the hand, for example - just as a television image of a brick is material - but can not be held in the hand.

    But this is NOT, in itself, evidence for non-material - unless you think irrationally.

    And I have shown you where your thinking is flawed.
    You are, to put it simply, using a lack of evidence FOR as evidence AGAINST.

    Several reasons:
    1. I know I do.
    2. It has been shown that the brain enters certain states when it dreams (REM, alpha waves etc) - which has been tested in the lab - and is repeatable.

    The comparison is between something for which there is evidence and something for which there is no evidence. The analogy, in this respect, is sound.

    In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it IS the only rational position.
    So, either I am missing the point of what constitutes evidence or not, or you are missing the point of why your evidence really isn't evidence FOR non-material things.

    I don't doubt your efforts, or your sincerity in this, and apologies if this comes over as arrogant or elitist (not my intention) but your reasoning is flawed.

    Understood and accepted - which is why we are still having such a long dialogue.

    This seems to be an argument from incredulity. And it may stem from subtle (but significant) differences in what we classify as material or not.

    This is where we differ - in that you think the mental representation is non-material - whereas I hold that rationally it should be considered material.

    And that's another thread entirely.

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