why is an infinite universe illogical?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by EmptyForceOfChi, Jul 11, 2007.

  1. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    Change the laws of physics?
    For what reason?
    They do a brilliant job of describing how things are - or do you think there's no work being done to extend them further back to the actual event?
    One day we may have the answer.

    What is proven how?
    That if things had been different things would be different?
     
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  3. GhostofMaxwell. Banned Banned

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    "why is an infinite universe illogical?"

    Why do you find an infinite universe illogical at all? I think it may be that we just have no experience of something without end in our every day life that makes it so hard to accept, but I really cant see that an open universe would actually be illogical.
     
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  5. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    i think work is being done ofcourse. i didnt say change the laws of physics, yo claimed that they break down. wich implies they are different. wich means change.




    how is it proven that the laws of physics were different at the big bang. why should i think they are not the same as they are now?



    peace.
     
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  7. superstring01 Moderator

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    12,110
    The universe is not infinite. Though it doesn't have an "end" that you can reach, it is not infinate. If you go in a straight line, you will eventually end up back where you start.

    Physically, it's an impossible thing for our inherently linear minds to grasp. But for arguement's sake, the universe is, likened to being "imprinted" on the inner lining of a basketball-- if you go in one direction long enough, you will eventually start where you left. Apply this model, as best as you can, on a three dimensional scale, and you'll just begin to grasp what I'm saying. Whereas if you were standing on the inner surface of a basketball you would have only "two dimensions"; in real space, you have three. There is no beginning, no end, but it is NOT infinite.

    ~String
     
  8. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    10,848
    source of this?

    this is your opinion or are you implying its true or a fact?

    peace.
     
  9. heliocentric Registered Senior Member

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    1,117
    Agreed!
     
  10. EmptyForceOfChi Banned Banned

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    10,848
    yeah if you want to limit yourself thats fine. if you believe something as truth just because its the current theory even without proof, this is not wisdom.

    peace.
     
  11. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,777
    Welcome to the Dim Age.

    Not proven, it's just a theory (general relativity) that is well experimentally confirmed within a teeny tiny fraction of its range of applicability, and not tested at all outside of that range, nevertheless scientists almost unquestionably assume it works for all of that range despite any seeming absurdities that entails.

    I don't see in your original post how you showed or gave evidence to support the idea that the universe is infinite. That is what most cosmologists accept though.
     
  12. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,777
    That's Einstein's proposed model of the universe, one out of an infinite number of possible models. Einstein had no experimental evidence to support it. In the most favored models today, the universe is infinite and was since the first moment after the big bang.
     
  13. superstring01 Moderator

    Messages:
    12,110
    It is the widely accepted model for the universe. I konw of NO modern cosmologist and/or physicist who denies it.

    That doesn't make it ture-- but physics is quite provable in mathematics... I accept this.

    ~String
     
  14. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    No, it means that what we know so far isn't the entire story - and may never be.

    Because none of the maths works.
    We can work so far back and then the results from the maths are meaningless, implying that we can't know - with current physics.

    Theories are based on evidence and calculation - not faith.
     
  15. John99 Banned Banned

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    22,046
    It is just as good as anyone else's story.
     
  16. Smellsniffsniff Gravitomagnetism Heats the Sun Registered Senior Member

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    364
    If all things are multiples to zero, then there is no such paradox, and the universe could indeed have come to existence from a nullarity, without dimensions. And there is nothing forbidding that it then became a singularity, with every length the smallest length, also a multiple to zero and only compareble interially.
     
  17. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    11,888
    Any multiple of zero is zero.
     
  18. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

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    3,777
    From U of Delaware:

     
  19. zanket Human Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,777
    Theories are articles of faith. Science is based on the faith that our leading theories predict valid results (i.e. results that match experimental observations within the margin of error of those observations) in the part of their range of applicability that has not yet been experimentally tested. The general theory of relativity, which breaks down at the big bang, is only believed to be valid in the 99.9995% of its range that has not yet been experimentally tested. The 0.0005% of its range in which the theory has been experimentally tested is the part furthest from the conditions it theorizes for near the beginning of the universe. So it is a huge leap of faith to use the theory for determining whether or not the universe had a beginning (a beginning of space and time, vs. always existed).
     
  20. Smellsniffsniff Gravitomagnetism Heats the Sun Registered Senior Member

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    364
    And it is also a multiple of zero. exactly 3 times exactly 0 is for instance exactly half as long as exactly 6 times exactly 0, in the same way exactly infinity/2 is half as long as exactly infinity. The multiplication rules and addition rules still apply, it is the numbers that are special. It is pointless to talk about infinity/2 and 0*3 oftenly. Is the universe infinitely big or is all things multiples to zero, same paradoxes arise. Except, if all things multiples of zero, the energyconservation problem do not arise.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2007
  21. fadingCaptain are you a robot? Valued Senior Member

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    1,762
    Chi,
    Yes, it appears energy cannot be created/destroyed. In a way this indicates an infinite existence, but only if you are thinking about time/motion as we experience it. If you prescribe to BB, time was created at the BB. There wasn't a clock ticking recording the existence of energy prior to BB. That is why I asked if something could exist without time?

    On another note, should we restrict ourselves to one universe?

    http://www.physorg.com/news68731082.html

    Sample:
    "But what if the universe is much older than it appears? Professors Paul Steinhardt (Princeton University) and Neil Turok (Cambridge University) have come up with a novel solution that gives the cosmological constant time to decay to its required value. Resurrecting a ghost of the cyclical universe, they propose that our universe is one of two embedded in the eleven-dimensional space of string theory.

    The two universes are linked with a spring-like attraction, and so pass through each other (moving along one of the higher dimensions) periodically. Every time they interact, enormous energies are released and both universes fill with hot plasma—a new Big Bang. There is no Big Crunch, as both universes are constantly expanding. A trillion years or so after one Big Bang, when the universe is practically empty, another Big Bang occurs and the stars and galaxies can form once more. "
     
  22. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    You're kidding, right?
    3*0 = 0
    6*0 =0
    They are both zero.
     
  23. Smellsniffsniff Gravitomagnetism Heats the Sun Registered Senior Member

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    364
    Is the number of planets in the universe equall to the number of solar systems in the universe if both are infinite? The answer is: no.
    Yet both are infinite. Though the division and subtracting rules still apply.

    In the same way, 3 zeroes are not one zero. One element does not equal 10 equal elements.

    Your mathematics is mathematics only for simpletons.

    The mathematic rules are equal for all numbers, it is the number variation that is the problem here.
     

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