Why is desire considered bad?

VitalOne

It is really a transformation. Like for instance if a person goes out to purchase a gold necklace and they get handed a 200g bar of gold why don't they buy it?

Then whats the difference betwen a drunk and an ascetic? In other words how do you account for the transformation while advocating something formless, uniform etc as the final word of the absolute

Where did maya come from if all that exists is brahman? How is it possible for brahman to be anything but brahman, since by definition it has nothing to interact with?

dreams are real, but they are temporary - same with matter

The problem is that in this material world we see numerous living entities interacting in an objective medium (usually in contention too). In the material world it is not just you - it is you, and everyone else in 8 400 000 species of life and god.

Now you are getting further into hot water - how is it possible for god to come under the influence of maya? Wouldn't that make illusion stronger than god? What sort of bhagavans could we possibly be?
Also there are countless statements where this is clearly demonstarted

CC Madhya 18.113: "A living entity and the Absolute Personality of Godhead are never to be considered equal, just as a fragmental spark can never be considered the original flame.

CC Madhya 18.114: "'The Supreme Personality of Godhead, the supreme controller, is always full of transcendental bliss and is accompanied by the potencies known as hlādinī and saḿvit. The conditioned soul, however, is always covered by ignorance and embarrassed by the threefold miseries of life. Thus he is a treasure-house of all kinds of tribulations.'

CC Madhya 18.115: "A foolish person who says that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the same as the living entity is an atheist, and he becomes subject to punishment by the superintendent of death, Yamarāja.

you can also call a drop of sea water salty but at the same time you cannot call it the ocean

If we are bhagavan shouldn't bhagavan's will be infallible?

"When a sensible man ceases to see different identities due to different material bodies and he sees how beings are expanded everywhere, he attains to the Brahman conception" (BG 13.31)

This verse is talking about the many bodies the jiva accepts through samsara - it is clearly explained in the next text and purport (13.32)

TRANSLATION

Those with the vision of eternity can see that the imperishable soul is transcendental, eternal, and beyond the modes of nature. Despite contact with the material body, O Arjuna, the soul neither does anything nor is entangled.

PURPORT

A living entity appears to be born because of the birth of the material body, but actually the living entity is eternal; he is not born, and in spite of his being situated in a material body, he is transcendental and eternal. Thus he cannot be destroyed. By nature he is full of bliss. He does not engage himself in any material activities; therefore the activities performed due to his contact with material bodies do not entangle him.

Its established that the living entity has an eternal identity seperate from the lord's eternal identity

BG 15.7: The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

BG 2.12: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

BG 2.20: For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

BG 2.24: This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same.

 

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its not really a transformation, its still gold...the bar of gold and the necklace are both gold appearing different from one another.

The difference is that an ascetic situated in Brahman, is Brahman itself, where as a drunk is illusionary...like an ascetic is gold itself, the essential, where as a drunk is a necklace, a bowl, a bar, another illusionary appearance

Well technically, maya came from chaos, in the beginning, before there was any matter, any energy, all was an eternal void thought, all was God.

All that exists cannot be anything but the absolute - brahman, everything in reality is that absolute, appearing differently. They say this is extremely difficiult to comprehend because we have no sense of Brahman, it would be like a born blind man trying to describe and comprehend what we term color.

Things aren't as objective as they appear, at least on a subatomic level. What we term 'reality' is really just a denser form of a dream, a super-dream as the Upanishinads say. Things appear objective and independant because everything is so dense, like a concentrated dream or vivid dream where everything appears almost real.

God doesn't come into the influence of maya, he is the origin of maya, the origin of existence, unborn, uncreated, the absolute truth, etc....however he is the supersoul, all things happen through him and him only, he is the all-that-exists, indeed even the demons and atheists are within him. Just as within a dream, I am the only thing truly existing, though many seemingly different things happen, but they have all happened through me and me only, they are acting through me and me only.

However, infinite realities emanate from God, its you and I.

We're not Bhagavan, but Bhagavan is the supersoul within us, with true knowledge we can enter Brahman conception.

It is akin to me dreaming I am a different person. In reality, I'm still me, but in the dream I'm someone else, but Me is all that exists.

Hmm...present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable, eternally the same...these all seem like descriptions of Bhagavan.

When you realize that you are dreaming that you're in a body of your own and that people are separate from you, then you'll realize that you're not your body and all people are acting as you through you, you realize your identity with Brahman.

 

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Haven't read Orwell, have you?

 

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I have but it doesn't explain how an animal can be a little bit dead

 

Which is not what my comment was about.

"Everyone is Brahman, but some are more Brahman than others" is a statement that pretty well sums up the Indian caste system.

 

you are confusing brahman with brahmana

BG 5.18: The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste].

BG 5.19: Those whose minds are established in sameness and equanimity have already conquered the conditions of birth and death. They are flawless like Brahman, and thus they are already situated in Brahman.

 

I was thinking more of "Everyone is Brahman, but some realize they are Brahman more than others"

 

If it is not really a transformation why doesn't a person who is out to purchase a gold necklace settle with a block of gold?

But a gold necklace is still gold - its not like because it is in the form of a necklace that it is not gold

technically it comes from chaos? no need to speculate because BG is a complete sastra ... actually it comes from the krsna

BG 7.14
This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.

(the sanskrit words are mama maya - my maya)

how could the void be eternal if you say that matter and energy develop in the void sometime later?
If a void was eternal you would expect it to remain a void for eternity since there is nothing there to happen or interact with anything

the problem is that brahman cannot accomodate the variety we perceive - hence vedic statements like
SB 1.2.11 "The Absolute Truth is realized in three phases of understanding by the knower of the Absolute Truth, and all of them are identical. Such phases of the Absolute Truth are expressed as Brahman, Paramätmä, and Bhagavän."

thats because there is no sense activity in brahman and it defined in sanskrit as adrsya

its what the supreme lord uses to hide his personal form behind like a curtain

that's why the isopanisad says

- Iso 15: O my Lord, sustainer of all that lives, Your real face is covered by Your dazzling effulgence. Kindly remove that covering and exhibit Yourself to Your pure devotee.

and the visnu purana says

visnur brahma-svarupena svayam eva vyavasthitah: Brahman's real feature is Visnu, or the Supreme Brahman is Visnu.


“ The problem is that in this material world we see numerous living entities interacting in an objective medium (usually in contention too). In the material world it is not just you - it is you, and everyone else in 8 400 000 species of life and god. ”

Actually the material world is described as anityam (temporary)

BG 9.33: How much more this is so of the righteous brāhmaṇas, the devotees and the saintly kings. Therefore, having come to this temporary, miserable world, engage in loving service unto Me.

not mithya (false) - the reason is because the material world actually exists but its existence is temporary - to say something is false is to say that something doesn't exist - the material world however comes and goes

BG 9.8: The whole cosmic order is under Me. Under My will it is automatically manifested again and again, and under My will it is annihilated at the end.

what is actually mithya is the living entities engagement lording it over material nature

SB 3.29.5 My dear Lord, You are just like the sun, for You illuminate the darkness of the conditional life of the living entities. Because their eyes of knowledge are not open, they are sleeping eternally in that darkness without Your shelter, and therefore they are falsely engaged by the actions and reactions of their material activities, and they appear to be very fatigued.

the living entity never attains a position of lordship over matter - if they think they do they are in illusion.

earlier you said that maya came from chaos - anyway - if we are all god and if we are under the influence of maya it seems strange ... even stranger is how you would apply krsna's instruction to surrender to him as a means of overcoming maya

BG 7.14
This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.

There are two souls in the body - the jiva (what you term as you) and the isvara - this is confirmed in Mukunda Upanisad (3.1.2) and Svetasvatar Upanisad (4.7)
"Although the two birds are in the same tree, the eating bird is fully engrossed with anxiety and moroseness as the enjoyer of the fruits of the tree. But if in some way or other he turns his face to his friend who is the Lord and knows His glories—at once the suffering bird becomes free from all anxieties."

also in numerous places in BG

BG 15.15: I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of Vedānta, and I am the knower of the Vedas.

BG 18.61: The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities, who are seated as on a machine, made of the material energy.

your statement does not line up with vedic statements that things happen not through jiva but isvara - the hamsa avatar directly addresses this

SB 11.13.22: My dear brāhmaṇas, if, when asking Me who I am, you believe that I am also a jīva soul and that there is no ultimate difference between us — since all souls are ultimately one without individuality — then how is your question possible or appropriate? Ultimately, what is the real situation or resting place both of yourselves and of Me?

-more info in the purport if you want to check it out
http://srimadbhagavatam.com/11/13/22/en

if its Me is all that exists and we are not bhagavan, how does bhagavan fit into the picture?

from the purport

All these qualifications of the atomic soul definitely prove that the individual soul is eternally the atomic particle of the spirit whole, and he remains the same atom eternally, without change. The theory of monism is very difficult to apply in this case, because the individual soul is never expected to become one homogeneously. After liberation from material contamination, the atomic soul may prefer to remain as a spiritual spark in the effulgent rays of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but the intelligent souls enter into the spiritual planets to associate with the Personality of Godhead.

The word sarva-gata ("all-pervading") is significant because there is no doubt that living entities are all over God's creation. They live on the land, in the water, in the air, within the earth and even within fire. The belief that they are sterilized in fire is not acceptable, because it is clearly stated here that the soul cannot be burned by fire. Therefore, there is no doubt that there are living entities also in the sun planet with suitable bodies to live there. If the sun globe is uninhabited, then the word sarva-gata — "living everywhere" — becomes meaningless.

this is problematic as pointed out by the bold text above

 

Because things appear differently then they really are...maya

As Krsna explains:
SB 11.28.22: Although thus not existing in reality, this manifestation of transformations created from the mode of passion appears real because the self-manifested, self-luminous Absolute Truth exhibits Himself in the form of the material variety of the senses, the sense objects, the mind and the elements of physical nature.

The idea of the necklace is the illusion or maya, that it is separate from gold

Yes it did come from Krsna when back before there was any material universe or matter all was Krsna himself as he says:

SB 2.9.33: Brahmā, it is I, the Personality of Godhead, who was existing before the creation, when there was nothing but Myself. Nor was there the material nature, the cause of this creation. That which you see now is also I, the Personality of Godhead, and after annihilation what remains will also be I, the Personality of Godhead.

The void is really not this, not this, not really a void, not really anything we can identify with.

The variety we percieve come from the three modes of nature, which came from Krsna at the beginning of creation in the days before Brahma designed and engineered the universe. However, still all really existing in reality is the absolute...how could it not be?

A living entity can indeed attain a position of lordship over matter.

The material world is described to be as unreal as dream, yet not a dream, more of a super-dream.

The material world is indeed false, why do you claim that dreams are false? They do exist in some way, but the way they exist is illusionary, false. Similarly the material world does exist in some way, but the way it exists is illusionary, false, appearing to have an independant existence.

As for temporary things, Krsna explains:
SB 11.28.21: That which did not exist in the past and will not exist in the future also has no existence of its own for the period of its duration, but is only a superficial designation. In My opinion, whatever is created and
revealed by something else is ultimately only that other thing.

yeah I also said in the beginning all was God or Krsna....

Krishna also explains that there is no individual soul and there is only one individual soul of all beings.

Actually, that lines up perfectly, when I say "Me" I mean "Krsna" or the supersoul, our own true inner self. This entire time I've been saying there's no difference between us and Bhagavan. However, what you're saying there being two individual souls doesn't line up at all...

It lines up perfectly especially when the Hamsa avatar says:
SB 11.13.24: Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

and this:
SB 11.13.26: A person who has thus achieved Me by understanding that he is not different from Me realizes that the material mind is lodged within the sense objects because of constant sense gratification, and that the material objects are existing prominently within the material mind. Having understood My transcendental nature, he gives up both the material mind and its objects.

We are Bhagavan in that Bhagavan is the supersoul within us, however we are not Bhagavan in that we are not the supersoul itself. You, your true self (supersoul) is all that exists, and all that has existed, and all that will exist. With true knowledge we can realize that we truly are with the supersoul, a pure vessel of light.

Purports say lots of things...they're really just personal interpretations of the author

 

read upnishads; especially mandukya; brihad-aranyaka upnishad etc; they teach you brahm to some extend (brahm=brahman; i prefer to say brahm because that is the correct pronounciation). atma's true self is brahm; when realized you enter samadhi; another definition of samadhi often stated is when you are in OM state; where you are in Deep sleeping, waking, dreaming state all at one instant...


Rick