Why is the symbol for life and luck hated so much?

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by Thor, May 14, 2004.

  1. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    Okay, long post coming up. I put this up a long time ago on another forum I frequent. I've completly lost the link I got my information on, so I'll just make it little and italics. But I think it's a good topic to discuss. So mods, if you edit this, it won't make a lick of sense. But I shall endevour to find the website it was found on and post it and delete this huge chunk of text. Thanks.

    Here goes...

    A rather sensitive subject here. But I would like to help clear up a popular misunderstanding of something that society now deems as more or less evil: The Swastika

    The swastika is an ancient symbol. Dating back 3,000 years, the swastika predates the ancient Egyptian symbol, the Ankh . Approximately 3,000 years ago (1000 BCE), the swastika was commonly used; swastikas have been found on many artifacts such as pottery and coins dating from ancient Troy.

    During the following thousand years, the image of the swastika could be found in many cultures around the world, including in China, Japan, India, and southern Europe.

    By the Middle Ages, the swastika was a well known, if not commonly used, symbol but was called by many different names: China - Wan England - Fylfot Germany - Hakenkreuz Greece - Tetraskelion and Gammadion India - Swastika

    Though it is not known for exactly how long, Native Americans also had long used the symbol of the swastika.

    The Original Meaning

    The word "swastika" comes from the Sanskrit svastika - "su" meaning "good," "asti" meaning "to be," and "ka" as a suffix.

    Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck.

    Even in the early twentieth century, the swastika was still a symbol with positive connotations. For instance, the swastika was a common decoration that often adorned cigarette cases, postcards, coins, and buildings. During World War I, the swastika could even be found on the shoulder patches of the American 45th Division and on the Finnish air force until after World War II.

    Change in Meaning

    In the 1800s, countries around Germany were growing much larger, forming empires; yet Germany was not a unified country until 1871. To counter the feeling of vulnerability and the stigma of youth, German nationalists in the mid-nineteenth century began to use the swastika, because it had ancient Aryan/Indian origins, to represent a long Germanic/Aryan history.

    By the end of the nineteenth century, the swastika could be found on nationalist German volkisch periodicals and was the official emblem of the German Gymnasts' League.

    In the beginning of the twentieth century, the swastika was a common symbol of German nationalism and could be found in a multitude of places such as the emblem for the Wandervogel, a German youth movement; on Jörg Lanz von Liebenfels' antisemitic periodical Ostara; on various Freikorps units; and as an emblem of the Thule Society.

    Hitler and the Nazis

    In 1920, Adolf Hitler decided that the Nazi Party needed its own insignia and flag. For Hitler, the new flag had to be "a symbol of our own struggle" as well as "highly effective as a poster." (Mein Kampf, pg. 495) On August 7, 1920, at the Salzburg Congress, this flag became the official emblem of the Nazi Party.

    In Mein Kampf, Hitler described the Nazis' new flag: "In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic." (pg. 496-497)

    Because of the Nazis' flag, the swastika soon became a symbol of hate, antisemitism, violence, death, and murder.

    What Does the Swastika Mean Now?

    There is a great debate as to what the swastika means now. For 3,000 years, the swastika meant life and good luck. But because of the Nazis, it has also taken on a meaning of death and hate.

    These conflicting meanings are causing problems in today's society. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. Chirag Badlani shares a story about one time when he went to make some photocopies of some Hindu Gods for his temple. While standing in line to pay for the photocopies, some people behind him in line noticed that one of the pictures had a swastika. They called him a Nazi.

    Unfortunately, the Nazis were so effective at their use of the swastika emblem, that many do not even know any other meaning for the swastika. Can there be two completely opposite meanings for one symbol?

    In ancient times, the direction of the swastika was interchangeable as can be seen on an ancient Chinese silk drawing.

    Some cultures in the past had differentiated between the clockwise swastika and the counter-clockwise sauvastika. In these cultures the swastika symbolized health and life while the sauvastika took on a mystical meaning of bad-luck or misfortune.

    But since the Nazis use of the swastika, some people are trying to differentiate the two meanings of the swastika by varying its direction - trying to make the clockwise, Nazi version of the swastika mean hate and death while the counter-clockwise version would hold the ancient meaning of the symbol, life and good-luck.


    I know people are gonna say 'Oh the Nazi's did this and Hitler did that' but...just because one group of (mass-murdering) people used the symbol means we should abolish thousands of years of history? There have been many fanatical groups that use symbols that most will know of but yet they're still regarded as having the same meaning. It doesn't make any sense.

    When people think of the Swastika, they think of the Nazi regime in World War 2. That's the wrong attitude. Just because one group used it with the wrong intentions means we should hate the symbol? The symbol predates the wrong intentions. We should hate the intentions, not the symbol.

    Call it bull if you wish but I hope this "little" thread has helped enlighten some people. Or if I am completely wrong, could someone please tell me (with sources).
     
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  3. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

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    You think people really care of its origins rather than its popular meaning. Same thing with the word nuclear...it is hated for what it represents, not what it is.
     
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  5. Hastein Welcome To Kampuchea Registered Senior Member

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    It's also a symbol of my Norse and German heritage. The symbol has more of a stigma is western nations, but in the east it is used all the time. During an earthquake in Japan a couple of years ago, incense cups were set out for the dead, and they were adorned with swastikas. Even though the Asians understand the reason for people hating it, they look past it and see more significant meaning.
     
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  7. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    I don't let others ignorance stop me from doing what I want. Pretty soon I'm gonna get a tattoo of the "peaceful" swastika together with other life symbols next to each other. And yes, I could ommit the use of a swastika but that's part of the reason why I'm having it there. It's not my fault most people are uneducated twits.

    - N
     
  8. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

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    It is a prevalent symbol in Hindu religion (though it is used backwards).
     
  9. Ozymandias Unregistered User Registered Senior Member

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    Swastikas have appeared in many different places -- there are Scandinavian runes that look like swastikas, different religious symbols exist as well -- but, do you honestly expect that the average shmoe knows this? No, of course not. They know the swastika for what it is famous for, and that is what they will hold to. There are far too many morons out there ...
     
  10. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    "You think people really care of its origins rather than its popular meaning."

    Of course I don't think people care, but I for one think people should know these things even if it means redicule...more so.

    "Same thing with the word nuclear...it is hated for what it represents, not what it is."

    Exactly. This is why I have taken it upon myself to educate people on the true sense of all these misunderstood words and concepts. I've been making leaflets about the Swaztika, Nuclear Power (inspired by a thread here), Who Won WW2 (not just the US), etc, etc to hand to people at my college and then hopefully on a broader scale.

    "The symbol has more of a stigma is western nations, but in the east it is used all the time."

    This is true. An Asian student at my secondary school a few years ago came in wearing a badge with it on, he was given it by some relatives that flew over. He was then bullied until he was forced to leave the school. This kind of thing just makes me angry and bitter at the world.

    "Even though the Asians understand the reason for people hating it"

    This is what we need to do, it's just the implimentation of it.

    "Pretty soon I'm gonna get a tattoo of the "peaceful" swastika together with other life symbols next to each other. And yes, I could ommit the use of a swastika but that's part of the reason why I'm having it there. It's not my fault most people are uneducated twits."

    That's good to hear. What other symbols will you be using?

    I pointed out to this guy at college the other day that is jacket was a contradiction. He had a huge peace symbol on the front of his ripped denim jacket and a swaztika with a cross through it (meaning 'No Nazi's I assume). He called me an ignorant fuckhead and walked away. Hmmm...nevermind, can't win them all.
     
  11. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

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    Get ready to meet with these response a lot.
     
  12. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    "It is a prevalent symbol in Hindu religion (though it is used backwards)."

    I believe the hindus reversed it after WW2 to avoid people thinking they were affiliated with the nazi regime.

    "Swastikas have appeared in many different places"

    Even in ruins and engravings in the UK. Not many people know this.

    The morons will continue to rule the world...GWB is a great example.
     
  13. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Its use as a symbol of the nazis ruined it for western culture for the forseeable future, and it is quite understandable. Don't we have enough symbols already without dragging this hated image out again?

    People that morn the loss of this symbol probably complain about not being able to use the word "gay" to describe happiness.
     
  14. Hastein Welcome To Kampuchea Registered Senior Member

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  15. Hastein Welcome To Kampuchea Registered Senior Member

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    It's a beautiful symbol and according to most researchers, it is the one of the most powerful ones because it gives the illusion of movement, unity, and equilibrium.
     
  16. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    "Its use as a symbol of the nazis ruined it for western culture for the forseeable future, and it is quite understandable."

    Yes it's understandable, but it annoys me when people just blindly accept these things. I shall fight cos I have nothing better to do!

    "People that morn the loss of this symbol probably complain about not being able to use the word "gay" to describe happiness."

    Why not just use the word happy? Seems more logical, right?

    "Here are some pretty incredible swastika pictures I found."

    They are pretty amazing. And woah, that's a lot of hits.
     
  17. Hastein Welcome To Kampuchea Registered Senior Member

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    This is a pretty good site too:

    www.swastika.com

    It details some of the more mystical interpretations of the symbol throughout history.
     
  18. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    "It's a beautiful symbol and according to most researchers, it is the one of the most powerful ones because it gives the illusion of movement, unity, and equilibrium."

    This is one of the reasons it should be used in it's correct manner. Not regarded as evil and full of hate. Why should people so ignorant to think of a group of people who use/d it instead of the REAL meaning? Personally, I think it is one of the, as Hastein mentioned, most powerful symbols around.

    "www.swastika.com"

    It didn't work. Said it was registered but not active

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  19. buffys Registered Loser Registered Senior Member

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    I remember hearing a U2 concert and they did a cover of Helter Skelter. Bono opened the song saying, "charles manson stole this from the beatles, now we're stealing it back".

    Maybe someday someone will take the swastika and use it in defiance of hitler, sort of like the gay community turning queer from a derogatory term to a term of their own. I think it will take either something like that or simply time, a long, long time. It's just a symbol so who cares really but it pisses me off a little that a psychopath can just steal it like that, staining it for centuries possibly.

    There should really be a rule, if you're insane and plan to do untold horrors under a certain symbol, you must hire a graphic designer to come up with an original logo.
     
  20. filter Registered Member

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    In Japan there are certainly no qualms about displaying the swastika. Go to any Japanese graveyard (if you happen to be passing through

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    ) and you will soon find yourself surrounded by them.

    The topic of the importance of actual vs. popular meaning of symbols and words is interesting. I have a friend who describes certain things/activities as 'gay'. His meaning is 'girlish', which is a harmless slight directed only at friends. However, other friends take offense at the use of the word 'gay' in such a context, due to their association with homosexuals. Intent vs. interpretation is a tricky question in our modern, PC-obsessed world. Is the onus upon the individual to curb his freedom in order to avoid possible offense, or should we actively teach the true meaning despite the hurt it may unintentionally cause due to misunderstandings regarding the true meaning of words/symbols (as in Thor's case)?

    f
     
  21. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Umm - clear a few things up -

    The Hindu swastica has been "reversed" for thousands of years. This was not a reaction to Naziism.

    The swastica itself, whether right or left spoked, is a representation of the sun and has been used as such for thousands of years. The Hellenes were quite fond of it, and associated it especially with Athena. (if memory serves)

    In Nordic usage, it is associated with Odin or Freya, especially with Odin. It has other forms as the solar cross and the sunwheel.
    As part of their attempt to revivify the ancient Norse religion, or simply to appropriate its power, the Nazis used many different Norse symbols. Hence the swastica is now associated with Nazism, as are eugenics, the operas of Wagner, elitism, nihilism, contempt for the masses and pretty much anything the sheeple find objectionable.

    NAZIS BAD!
     
  22. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    wrong, they are used both ways in hinduism
    to the right it represets the enrgies of life and creation
    counter clokwise it is death and destruction

    swastika is an ancient indoeuropean symbol and naturally it is known as in India so in Europe.
    in Latvian mythology it's the attribute of the thunder god Perkons and it protects from bad luck and evil spirits.

    in ancient times to every born male a wooden swastika was put above his bead and taken away or burned (it's not known) after his death

    I have a silver swastika round my neck
     
  23. Thor "Pfft, Rebel scum!" Valued Senior Member

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    "The Hindu swastica has been "reversed" for thousands of years. This was not a reaction to Naziism."

    Rightyo. I think I got confused with a small movement to have the swaztika reversed but still have the same meaning. Thanks for the clear up.

    "in ancient times to every born male a wooden swastika was put above his bead and taken away or burned (it's not known) after his death"

    Did not know that, I think I'll look more into it
     

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