Why is the USA pussy whipped by Israel?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Medicine*Woman, Jun 5, 2008.

  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group



    I think the special "diet" of the Palestinians, not to mention putting them in ghettos and attacking civilians with military force simply because they are NOT JEWS, qualifies.

    All the historians with access to the Haganah documents have told the same story.

    Consensus opinion on valid documentation is history.
     
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  3. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Sounds like what the arabs were trying to do to Israel in 1948 and what so many of them are still trying to do today.

    Just what is this special diet you refer to, and what's your source on that?

    By "all historians" do you mean the 3 or 4 you repeatedly cite? Doesn't sound like much of a consensus to me.
     
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  5. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    If you're talking about how the Palestinians in Gaza are starving, you already agreed that they'd have their food if Israel was guaranteed its basic security in exchange. You keep saying the Palestinians must fight, so I guess you want them to fight to the death, in which case don't complain about their food supply.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Would you agree to Palestinians starving their Israeli captives under similar conditions?
     
  8. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Haha, I caught that bit of the quote where you said "clearly you support starving the Palestinians" or something along those lines before you edited at the last minute. Hell no! I'm in favour of a 2 state solution, and for that to be viable, not only must the Palestinians be fed, but they must be helped to prosper as well. But I don't see why Israel would have much interest in permitting open shipments to Gaza when rockets, arms and rocket fuel are included in those shipments. As for food, the UN still provides enough for Palestinian survival through Israeli border crossings, but it's tough for them to do this when Hamas keeps launching mortars at said crossings.

    And yeah, if the Palestinians were the stronger side and Israeli settlers kept attacking their women and children, with no efforts whatsoever by any Israeli security agency to put a stop to these attacks, I'd wholeheartedly support the Palestinians doing whatever they needed to do to protect themselves. Why would I want to see the Palestinians get second class international legal treatment? That would only radicalize them the way people like you radicalize the Israelis.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So you support oppression of minorities. That is interesting. :bugeye:
     
  10. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, I support peoples' right to self-defense. Hamas is the elected government in Gaza and not only do they not seek to prevent attacks, usually they're the ones carrying it out! See the irony?

    If Israelis in Sderot on the Gaza border or settlers in the West Bank started sniping and firing rockets and mortars at neighbouring communities, you betcha the IDF and Israeli border police would be right on the scene to put a halt to it. If they didn't, damn right the Palestinians would have the right to give 'em hell. It's self-defense, plain and simple. Gaza is not defending itself from anything right now except retaliation against their own provocations.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah I see it. Do you?
     
  12. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    Your lack of insight into the Palestinian mindset is awe inspiring. The Palestinians view what they are doing as self defense.
     
  13. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    I understand that's how they view it, but that doesn't change the fact it's counterproductive. I think the best solution is peacekeepers on the Gaza border who will act against any violations from either side, but I doubt anyone's interested enough to do that. Used to work in the M.E. back in the old days though.
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Plus peacekeepers tend to end up as collateral damage too.
     
  15. Mr.Spock Back from the dead Valued Senior Member

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    why is this thread in religion section? can someone enlighten me....
     
  16. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    I'm as baffled as you are. I was thinking about asking the mods to move this to the politics section, but anyhow the only reason I joined this thread in the first place is because when I saw the title I said to myself "WTF? What kind of xenophobic slander is this?"

    Anyhow S.A.M., don't worry, I'm still gonna post the goods on your sources, Benny Morris and Ilan Pappe. Just taking a break for now since I don't see the rush, and there's a lot of material to choose from.
     
  17. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Well it seems Israel is ready and willing to deal with it themselves if and when need be, so other nations will have to take one sort of risk or another if they want to intervene and propose a better solution.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Of course they are, Rome used to be the same way.
     
  19. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    So without further ado, let's get to the good stuff. S.A.M. has been quoting research conducted by dissident Israeli academics Ilan Pappe and Benny Morris to claim that there is evidence from the Israeli side of intentional large-scale massacres and pre-meditated intentions to cleanse the lands within the 1948 borders of all arab inhabitants. Rather than asking for the full context of their research and the full context of the resources on which this research is based, neither of which have been provided, I shall instead give quotes from both academics criticizing and debunking each others' work.

    These particular quotes come from a website called camera.org, which I freely admit takes a strongly pro-Israel stance. However, their stated mission is to monitor and correct perceived fallacies in Middle East reporting, and they provide independent resources to verify their claims. Rather than copy and paste everything verbatim to flood this forum and make it an unreadable eye-straining mess like S.A.M. does, I'll simply provide a link:

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=122&x_article=1299

    and also (linked from the above article) http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_print=1&x_context=8&x_nameinnews=122&x_article=994

    A brief example of Benny Morris criticizing Ilan Pappe's work; the source for this one is cited as the New Republic, March 22, 2004:
    Another quote from Morris:
    There are many other criticisms of Ilan Pappe just from that one article alone (on camera.org), and he seems to have quite the reputation for factual distortions and falsehoods. This is something a proper researcher would have considered and looked into very carefully before levelling authoritative charges accusing an entire race of people of committing intentional genocide.

    More factual distortions listed by camera.org that, if true, would make Pappe a seriously questionable source on history:
    This is just a small fraction of the arguments against Pappe's work coming from just one website, never mind all the mainstream academics who have directly challenged this work.

    And here's Pappe criticizing Morris' work in the Jerusalem Post:
    Now you can argue that Pappe disagrees with Morris only insofar as Morris doesn't blame everything on the zionists, but what kind of objectivity is that supposed to represent?

    I can cite countless videos and articles by arab writers talking about how the Palestinians have plenty of reasons to lay most of the blame for their Nakba on the arab nations who pretended (and still pretend) to represent them. I can find you plenty of arab writers and academics who give themselves wholeheartedly to supporting the Israeli cause, at least insofar as the 1948 borders are concerned. Do I bother to do this? No, because what concerns me most are objective sources that can conclusively prove one claim or another. Otherwise, in the absence of hard physical and corroborative evidence for so many of the claims and counterclaims, arguing about events that happened generations ago, we have no option but to move on and work from the facts we have today. The UN recognition of Israel within its 1948 borders seems to me a very reasonable place to start, and a majority of Israelis and Palestinians have said as much in the past.
     
  20. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Benny Morris doesn't really say that there was a premeditated plan to that effect, from what I've read. I'm willing to accept him as a relatively objective historian.
     
  21. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Because they let us.

    I may have missed it in the mess of this thread, but I can't believe no one mentioned what I always thought was the blatantly obvious reason...
    Location.

    It has nothing to do with politics, ideologies, religion...
    It's just location.

    They are a friendly military base in the Middle East - that's where all that oil is, remember?

    We support them, they let us fly our planes out of there.
    The more powerful they are, the more powerful we are THERE.

    This is why ANYTHING in the Middle East is important to us.

    The only reasons the US military does anything are always pragmatic ones.
    All the ideological, patriotic, political and religious bullshit are propaganda to get the public behind the spending and wars.
    We put Sadam Hussein in power because we wanted a friendly regime in Iraq and we wanted a permanent military base there.
    We went after Sadam Hussein because we wanted a friendly regime in Iraq and we wanted a permanent military base there.
     
  22. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    I always thought it has something to do with the evangelical's plan to resurrect Jesus and start the apocalypse?
     
  23. desi Valued Senior Member

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    Its about money. Say, I run for congress. I get money from a guy named Joe, no questions asked. I win. Joe comes to me later and offers more money for my re-election...

    Later, Congress is voting on whether or not to give Israel 10 billion in guns and butter money. Joe comes and humbly offers me a free tour of Israel and suggests Israel, who he works for, would appreciate my help voting for the guns and butter bill.

    How should I vote? How would you?

    Its not a hard sell. "Its a slow fade"...
     

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