Why is the USA pussy whipped by Israel?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Medicine*Woman, Jun 5, 2008.

  1. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    And to the rest of you arguing that rich jews run your lives- no, it's your own fault you're stuck pumping gas, flipping burgers, tiling roofs and selling used tires. Go get educated and you won't have this problem anymore.
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    There is no debate here, except for the lies of Zionists. The facts are coming out with British and Haganah documents as they are being released.

    Land ownership in 1945
    http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg

    Land Theft:

    One example:

    Another:


    Still stealing:

    They should be kicked off the land they have stolen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2008
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  5. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    What can be more clear and indisputable than a whole montage of photos of the Palestinians' leader cozying up to Hitler? Now there's the story they don't want you to hear!

    I agree, Israel should leave the lands they blatantly stole from the locals, and go back to the 1948 borders, once they have a fair and reasonable guarantee of their security in exchange for doing so. They only stole these lands after these lands had been used as bases to attack them, so they have every right to stay until they know it won't happen again. Beyond that, you'll have to argue with the UN as well as a number of arab historical figures who've already admitted their role in precipitating the Nakba.

    Even at best, you can't argue past the 1947 borders. If arabs aren't living on a piece of property, and they sell it to a bunch of jews, how is that still arab land? Try and justify that one without resorting to the Quran. Israel accepted those tiny, crappy plots of reclaimed wasteland for their state, and the arabs still attacked. It's the same as how Russia annexed chunks of east Germany and continues to hold them as compensation for what the Germans did to them in WWII.

    Well really, what more is there to argue? It's like we come from alternate universes where a completely different set of events happened. Maybe we should focus on things we can agree upon, like how the Serbs should get their rightful piece of Kosovo just like the Albanians do.
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    You're missing the point. The 70 per cent land theft is within the 1948 borders. They have been stealing from the moment they came.

    And yeah, I agree about the parallel universe. I noticed it immediately when I came to the US. There is the reality, as available from factual study of the problem. European immigrantes who 2000 years after the fact signed a deal with some Europeans to get a state on a land that was occupied by people. Who invaded and killed and stole the land, created a theocracy, gave a "right of return" only to Jewish people while shooting dead any natives who wanted to come home. This was defined as a democracy.

    On the other hand, you had bewildered native Palestinians, deprived of self determination by the British and other white colonials, whose continuous presence on their native land was ignored when it was handed over to Jews from Europe. They were driven into ghettos, unarmed and defenceless, murdered in an ethnic cleansing nightmare and have been refugees for 60 years, wondering why a Jewish theocracy has a right to their homes and country. This was defined as terrorism.

    The alternate reality where 2000 year old rights supercede current inhabitation is where you are diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

    As for Arabs selling the land, does "absentee" and "confiscation" give you a hint of reality?
     
  8. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    Hey S.A.M., I have an idea for you! Let's take over our own country! Hmmm.... I think the Dominican Republic seems pretty nice. Ok, here's what we're gonna do. We're both going to write books and call them "non-fiction" and it'll be all about how the African "slaves" actually brought their own ships over and conquered the land. The whole story about Spanish people bringing them over as labourers, well it might be true but we'll just argue that it's lies and colonialist hooey. Then we'll send a couple of our kids over there with bombs strapped to their chests to go terrify the local residents, and if they dare respond we'll bleat and wail for the cameras when they come for us. We'll have that land soon my friend, part and parcel, the Dominican Republic is 100% ours! Awesome!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, it is hard to face reality sometimes. However, one can and should rise above both injustice and revenge. Which is why I do not believe that Israelis should have to leave any more than Palestinians had to. There is enough room for everyone if justice and human rights are considered.

    My solution:

    1. A Jewish state with right of return for Jews only is a racist state. Either Israel is a racist state or it is a democracy. It cannot be both.

    2. Not only the Palestinians but also the Jews who were "evacuated" deserve justice

    3. Jews will be safer in the ME than anywhere else.

    Hence putting it all together, the Arab nations including Israel should offer Palestinians and Israeli Jews a choice of citizenship. Dismantle the apartheid wall. Let the Jews and Arabs in Israel and Arab countries go where they wish. Like the EU, they can do away with visas entirely. Israel can keep its Judaic character, Arabs are not anti-Judaism, it is almost identical to Islam and all Judaism is kosher for Muslims anyway. I think this is the only solution that will help Israel and its Jewish character to be safe, while making the ME safe for Jews and Israel safe for Muslims.

    This is what right thinking people in the ME should strive for.
     
  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Jewish immigration to Israel had been going on for a hundred years, they had a settled life and legitimately bought land. True WWII accelerated the process, but once there was a critical mass, they needed to form a real state. Apparently the Arabs never thought of doing that and made it difficult. There was a war and the Arabs lost, so they have no claim to anything seized in war. Israel actually had much more land, which they gave back. Thousands of years of Arab occupation doesn't mean anything if you try to kill me.
     
  11. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If you shoot the natives who try to come back, can you claim their land under the absentee law? If you bodily pick up and throw out people, does their land come under absentee law? If Europeans with wealth decide to create a state on top of your homes and remove you through bombs and terrorism, does that entitle them to your homes? Do people have a right to keep out immigrants who come to their land with the intent to create a theocratic state that excludes them?
     
  12. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I'm sure that Israel could also return all their land if only, say, Jordan could do the same, where it's illegal for Jews to own any land at all. Or any air, probably.
     
  13. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Putting the cart before the horse, aren't we?
     
  14. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Which they weren't back then, but go on.

    Which the Arabs tried on them first, but go on.

    Same as above, but go on.

    Well, it's a darned shame that they established a theocratic land in Israel, because there was no such theocracy before. Like a history of oppressive riots (Nebi Musa) and practices against non-muslims (forcing them into "Quarters" - which you assure me they really like, though: like rats or pigs or dogs, maybe), or forcible expulsions of them from Palestine (1916-1919). And it's a darn good thing that sentiment isn't alive today, either, like in Jordan or Egypt (which evicted 25,000 Jews and threw 1,000 others into concentration camps) or Saudi Arabia or Turkey or Iraq or Syria or Libya or Iran or Indonesia or Malaysia or Afghanistan or Pakistan or Morocco or the UAE. Or at least Yemen is free of that attitude, anyway. Yessir. The ME is a shining example of what a people can do with their tolerance, if only they chose to. I mean choose to.
     
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    If you read the King Crane Commission report, no one had any objection to Jews coming to stay there as citizens, the only objection was to the creation of a Jewish state in a multicultural society. And rightly so. The riots followed the Balfour declaration and frankly, if any multicultural society today was to announce itself as a harbor for one religious minority group state, you can bet there will be riots.

    In 1919:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King-Crane_Commission

    And they were right.
     
  16. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    It was like 4 or 5 Arab nations that intended to kill the Jews, so no, Arabs lost their right to come back there. They can go anywhere else where they are native, but not there unless Israelis are gracious enough to let them. The Arabs are not innocent, they committed mass murder and riots against Jews, they wanted their own theocracy, they commit terrorism. Excluding Arabs from Israel was not inevitable, indeed there are Arab Israelis, but they forced Israel's hand. I know many Arabs were innocent victims of circumstance and it was a tragedy, but given the state of many Arab and Muslim nations today, Israel can consider itself lucky.
     
  17. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    In that case, since Israelis were killing from the moment they came in with aspirations for a zionist state, what right has Israel to exist at all? Considering the Arabs had no objection to Jews coming as citizens only as zionists, the Israeli position is the weaker one.
     
  18. CptBork Valued Senior Member

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    If Quebec wants to separate from Canada, they have every right to do so. We've already given them a chance to vote on it- twice. They might even have a third vote coming up in a few years, depending on the political climate. It's a recognized international law of self-determination that these people have the right to separate if they choose. Now how much of Quebec they can take for themselves is disputable, since French Canadians aren't the only ones with sovereignty in Quebec. But they are certainly entitled to a very big chunk if not the whole thing.

    Regardless of what nation state the land now known as Israel was intended to be part of (i.e. greater Syria, or greater Jordan, or greater Egypt), there is no law which says that the jews there couldn't declare their own state on their own sovereign land. Any group of peoples that can demonstrate exclusive sovereignty over the territory in which they live has the right to self-determination. The original declaration of dependence was on soil that the jews controlled and obtained almost 100% by legal, recognized methods. The arabs could have accepted it back then, which would have left the jews with tiny, scattered territories and the Palestinians with nearly the whole land under their sovereign control. They not only refused, but they attacked, en masse.

    The displacement of the Palestinians is a tragedy but no greater than the tragedy of the million jews who were expelled from their homes in arab countries. It is also a tragedy that was as much the work of the invading arab armies as it was the work of the jewish defenders. Everybody had blood on their hands, and it was a big mess. There's no sense in returning to that scenario, it's time to move on and make some reasonable compromises so both sides can have viable, independent states. Then maybe one day once everyone has learned to accept each others' fundamental existence, then they can talk about economic unions and other things breaking down the unnatural barriers of the nation state. Right now such talk is meaningless, they are literally at each others' throats and need some separation time.

    If you want to help move things forward, it's time to put forth some proposals that guarantee Israel won't be forced to defend itself yet again as it had to in 1967 and 1948. That's the only way they'd be willing to compromise on territorial integrity and national security. Telling them to leave so they can get more rockets like they get from Gaza isn't going to do anything but infuriate them.

    Still don't see what any of that has to do with the original topic, which is that the US is being "pussywhipped" by Israel and the zionist lobby (it appears now from some of the evidence posted and actual financial figures, that this claim isn't even remotely true).
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    False, the original population of Jews was 7% and the British mandate of Palestine that the UN accorded to them was 55%, based on the condition that native Palestinians would have their rights respected. The Jews broke this covenant too, ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and as of today occupying 100% of the land. This is not self determination, this is occupation and it is illegal.

    And its funny that a people who are "returning" after 2000 years should tell everyone else to move on.
     
  20. draqon Banned Banned

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    ummm SAM, the Jews still have not sniped/bombed everyone in Gaza and West Bank, so its not 100%
     
  21. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The occupation is 100%. Which part of Palestine does not require an Israeli permit to enter or leave?
     
  22. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    If it were only sporadic violence, one could discount it as cultural differences, I'm talking about real warfare. Your characterization of Jews sweeping down as violent European colonizers is pure propaganda.
     
  23. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Nope, it is supported by the Haganah disclosures:

    All this before any Arab army set foot in Palestine.
     

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