Why isn't faith embarrasing?

Neato!

 

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Just one minute ago SAM you said" "No children were being taught to mutilate themselves." Seems to me we agree.

 

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Yeah, it's this tribal mentality and indifferent treatment (I'm Turk, you're Indian; I'm Sunni, you're Shi'ite) that's ruined the Islamic homelands for decades. Off topic here, but the idea of nationline borders has been utterly disastrous. Divide and conquer, as they say. Shi'ites must relinquish barbaric rituals, and nations in poverty (Islamic or not) need to abandon dead traditions. Would you agree?

 

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I'm wondering how much weight 11 (or is it 22?) forefingers can lift for a few seconds.

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i have some lead diving weights in my garage. ill do the test when i feel better.

 

I guess I thhink differently. Do we really want a central authority telling us the "right way" to think?

I'm okay with the indifference and diversity, although most people don't realise it, it enables much more freedom.

What I would like to see, is more education. Uniformly all through. I think Muslims have fallen back where education is concerned, which has held them back socially as well.

I don't mind the slower pace of life they prefer, I'm not a believer in concrete jungles and the social systems and isolationist individualism they engender.

 

Damn. I agree with everything you just said.

 

I meet all kinds of Muslims, its very refreshing to hear other, independently arrived at points of view.

Even from the agnostics, atheists, apostates, converts and reverts (they all continue to cling to Islam in some fashion or other). Gives me hope that the religion will grow into something really beautiful on its own. Its amazing what different people (even the agnostics, atheists and apostates) can learn from it.

/ya ya I know this part you don't agree with.

 

I wouldn't support a central authority dictating what can and cannot be emblems in our society, although somewhere you have to draw the line. You stress importance on education, but personally, I don't see education growing out of people who take machetes to their children's heads. It's usually where tribal traditions occur, where there is decline and substandard quality in all other fields of society.

Oh, and I love the slower pace of life, too. Nothing like those long breakfasts in the morning I used to have with the whole family after waking up, then drinking tea on the balcony.

 

I think this is where more educated Muslims should play a role.

e.g. there is a movement in Indian Muslims that where parents are very poor and can afford to send their child to a (free) madrassa, it should be made possible to incorporate a more academic education along with the classes on Arabic and Qiraat. Perhaps the madrassas could collect funds to provide scholarships for further education and help these poorer children to obtain better knowledge.

Here is a successful example:
http://indianmuslims.in/traditionalist-ulema-lead-educational-revolution-in-kerala/

It is what I like best about Islamic societies. Everything is enjoyed, no hurry.

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Education is going to play hell with Islam, you know. Darwin is out there, and he's not going away.

It's not a matter of falling back, necessarily, so much as self defense. Fundies have a lot in common, world over and pan-religion.

 

S.A.M.

Of course, but it all starts at the top, right? Most Middle Eastern countries either have incompetent, corrupt rulers, or puppets of Western forces. It's hard to make change when those with all the power like things the way they are.

 

why can't we all just get along?

 

Darwin does not have to go anywhere. Creationism in Islam is borrowed from Christian evangelicals. Per se, it plays no role at all where Islamic theology is concerned.

 

Well then it will be no problem, I'm sure.

Living and learning about fundies - - -

In the US (and other places) it started at the bottom. I can recommend that, if effectiveness and results are truly desired - no guarantees, but generally better odds.

 

This was genuinely funny. By the way, are you a comedian? Let's seem some supporting scripture.

 

Yes, but change is unstoppable. The Saudi Arabia of yesteryear is not the Saudi Arabia of today. Awareness has arrived with the digital age. A small example (very small but very very significant) is the reversion of the court case decision on the rape victim who was to be punished, the reversion of the case on the Mo bear teacher.

The problem is not that the people don't recognise the idiocy of dictatorship, the problem is (like Americans vis a vis the Iraq war) they are powerless to effect change.

In that, the sense of ulema that has sprung up post 9/11, from people ignoring the backward Saudi Wahabbism and Sudanese civil war as "not my problem" to a global recognition that it has become their problem, whether they like it or no, is a positive change. Never underestimate the power of peer pressure (and investors).

 

The only creationists in Islam (with any audience) are the Harun Yahya Show (I dismiss the idoits with no education). He is flagrantly supported by Christian evangelicals and spouts a load of shit.

We can discuss this in a separate thread if you like, but creationism as the ID crowd and CCR crowd define it, is unscientific. Not worth wasting time over.

Refuting Harun Yahya Islamic Creationism

 

Wow sometimes your wisdom is apparent for all to see!

 

Hearing that kind of gets me annoyed. Most Muslims don't believe in evolution, yet we are followers of Harun Yahya (a brilliant man whose name most of us don't even know, let alone pronounce)? How many of his books have you ever read? How many have you countered with your own? It's easy to degrade a book by calling it names, but what's important is how you evaluate its content.

I don't need to believe in evolution to recognize that we (and the rest of the universe) weren't constructed in six days. I know more than you ever will about the universe and all the theories as to how we're here today for you to call my beliefs a load of shit.