Why So Many Great Flood Traditions?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by Arne Saknussemm, Aug 10, 2014.

  1. Prophet(PBUH)) Registered Member

    I'm sorry you are going to have to do better then it's false claim prove it false. secondly an atheist doesn't have a belief system your comment is just purely BS and lacks logic. but hey at least we now know you have a belief system.
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  3. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Oops, wrong way round.
    YOU made the claim.
    It's therefore up to YOU to show that you're correct.
    And, using actual modern geology, you can't.

    Um, wrong again.
    I didn't - at all - state that atheists don't have a belief system (some atheists believe football is worth watching, some believe that McDonald's is a good place to get food). What I DID state is that, in general, atheists simply lack the belief in god(s) rather than flat out declare that god does definitely not exist.
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  5. Prophet(PBUH)) Registered Member

    I don't believe that the Bible reveals cosmic truth, I know that it does, and so would any honest person. And I am not contradicting what I have just said above. For instance: cosmic, Biblical truth - 'love your neighbor as you love yourself'. Of course that is right and good. Now an example of me not absolutely having made up my mind: 'Ah, I just got my month's salary, and I don't think I'm going to hand it over to the first homeless man I see.' or 'I think i'll eat this pint of raspberry chocolate ripple ice cream all by myself.'

    I will grant you that some of the stories make no sense (to me) and would venture to no modern people, like Genesis 19:30-36


    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    What's up with that?[/QUOTE]

    I already like you! I'll help you with Genesis 19:30-36 but first everything in context and remember God isn't into playing mind games as he said Proverbs 25: 2 To conceal a matter, this is the glory of God, to sift it thoroughly, the glory of kings.

    As for you keeping your wages the first commandment give by God was Be fruitful, and Multiply. Spending your earnings is more beneficial then giving it away for God says as well teach a man to fish he will eat for a life time give him a fish he will eat for a day. See you are already there no? I'll get back to you on the other I suffer sometimers.
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  7. Prophet(PBUH)) Registered Member

    The evidence is global and mounting and it's not to just a global flood but it was recent. I will submit the structures such as the Dover Cliffs are a prime example allow me to elaborate one we know what the Dover Cliffs are made out of microscopic crustaceans can I for go giving the dimensions of this one of many such structures ? Good so some would have you believe this structure and others like it took millions and millions of years to form but it in fact couldn't why you ask great question because of the purity and single layer that it is you see if it took millions and millions of years to form other sedimit would layer in no? but there is none. Next this one is going to really hurt your head consider a short 2-5 year period this would have taken what feed it? how much mass of material would it have taken to create such a bloom? The list if you only bother to educate your self on this event is global explains the ages of our rivers as well the answer to your proof is right in front of your R.A.S. (reciprocating automated system it's a function of your brain that tells you are are always right even when you are totally clueless by using past life experience as well as dreamed true and false in other words your sub conscious is in more control of your beliefs then your conscious is )blinds you to the facts not me.

    I hate to break the bad news to you its the same problem Stephen Hawkins has suffered and why every single theory he has put forward. he has only later had to admit he was completely wrong after proofs had been given to that effect yet in some cases he took decades to do so. I bet you didn't know for all his fame he has yet to over time get a single thing correct. Physic theory is the only thing I know of that will get you such praise for being so wrong all the time yet many bow to him it's laughable!
  8. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    So you say.
    But you haven't provided ANY reference whatsoever.

    So what?

    Spouting inane bol*cks doesn't help your argument.

    The guy's name is Hawking.

    Yeah? What problem is that?

    This is yet another false (and unsupported) claim.

    Outright lie.

    Then you don't know anything.
  9. Prophet(PBUH)) Registered Member

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking why don't you just read seeing how I have already assisted paying for what apears to be a poor public education of you , maybe you should just read up and try again. and clearly you have zero ability of reason.
  10. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    I read it. Did you?
    Quotes directly from the linked page:

    "Hawking extended the singularity theorem concepts first explored in his doctoral thesis. This included not only the existence of singularities but also the theory that the universe might have started as a singularity." "In 1970 they published a proof that if the universe obeys the general theory of relativity and fits any of the models of physical cosmology developed by Alexander Friedmann, then it must have begun as a singularity" Has he been shown to be wrong on that?

    "he proposed the four laws of black hole mechanics, drawing an analogy with thermodynamics" "Jacob Bekenstein, a graduate student of John Wheeler, went further ...to apply thermodynamic concepts literally" Oh, another occasion where he was shown to be wrong.

    "Hawking's work with Carter, Werner Israel and David C. Robinson strongly supported Wheeler's no-hair theorem that no matter what the original material from which a black hole is created it can be completely described by the properties of mass, electrical charge and rotation" Oh, and again...

    "Hawking ... showed that black holes emit radiation, known today as Hawking radiation, which may continue until they exhaust their energy and evaporate." "... by the late 1970s and following the publication of further research, the discovery was widely accepted as a significant breakthrough in theoretical physics" Wrong again?

    So yeah, like you (erroneously) claimed, "he has yet to over time get a single thing correct." Tell me again about MY poor education and ability to reason...

    I note that you've carefully ignored all of the other points in my post.
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2014
  11. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    I could'a told you to not try roasting that duck, but then: I'd'a missed the fun.
  12. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    No, that is a lie/propaganda.


    The purity of the chalk indicates its formation took place far from land, mostly free of terrestrial sands and silts that would otherwise have coloured it. Evidence indicates the nearest landmass was where Wales is today. At Dover the lower half of the cliff and foreshore contains a slightly greater volume of land-sourced sediment, this is particularly evident in the hardgrounds described below. Chalk is largely comprised of the skeletal remains of planktonic algae known as coccolithophores which accumulated to form a white ooze on the seafloor. This soft sediment was later compacted and hardened (lithified) to form chalk - a relatively soft rock itself. To discover more about chalk click here.


    Ok, so you also know how to contradict yourself. Do you want the dunce hat or the clown face?

    Oh, maybe a stoner.

    IOW you hate him and you hate geology because they disprove religious fundamentalism. Obviously you lost the fundamentalist message about honesty, so you must breed a particularly noxious brand of religion.

    Another SPAZ attacker, no doubt. You must be really pissed off that the people your age are all coming home for the holidays after completing their midterm exams. Too bad you failed the SATs. Keep it up; you've definitely got a great formula for failure.
  13. Amar Nath Reu Be your own guru Registered Senior Member

    The flood was probably experienced by one people, it was catastrophic for them, in what was their world. Then the story passed on by a dominant (militarily or intellectually) culture to other people. Those who were not familiar with ice-sheets (like the Indians) thought it must have been a flood by water.

    "3. As the first best of regions and countries I, who am, Ahura Mazda, created Airyana Vaêjo of good capability; thereupon in opposition, to him Angra Mainyus, the death-dealing, created a mighty serpent and snow, the work, of the Daêvas.

    4. Ten months of winter are there, two months of summer. [Seven months of summer are there; five months of winter there were;* the latter are cold as to water, cold as to earth, cold as to trees, there (is) - midwinter, the heart of winter; there all around falls deep snow; there is the direst of plagues.]"
    * What happened later and what was before.
    Gathas (Stories), Haug and Bunsen, as reported in "Arctic Home in Vedas" by B.G. Tilak
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

    Many floods were experienced by many people and were catastrophic to those people. There's no need for flood stories to be passed on to other people who have no experience of floods. Practically everybody has experience of floods anyway.

    Again, why would you conclude one flood when we know there were many?
  15. Amar Nath Reu Be your own guru Registered Senior Member

    Indo-Europeans traveled far and wide. Many mythologies have taken stories from them. Ten months of winter and two months of summer can only be in glacial times. That is why Aryans had to leave 'Airyanam Vaêjo'. Even the seven months of summer and five months of winter happens only in the Arctic regions. Seven month day and two months of dusk and dawn, which is clearly mentioned in RigVeda, the thirty sisters, who arrive before the sun rises. The night (Ati Ratra - Darker night) was supposed to last for not less than two months, but never more than a 100 days. That is why the old Roman calandar had only ten months till 700 BC when it was revised by Emperor Numa Pompious. The year began with Vernal equinox, just as it did in the Zoroastrian or the Vedic calendar. We even had priests who completed their sacrificial cycle in 10 months, they were known as Dashagwahas (completing their rituals in ten months). No I am not an Indian Aryan supremacist. Aryans were just like other people, with their desires and disappointments, who established marital relations with the people they encountered, but they do have an interesting history.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2014
  16. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    This is consistent with the evidence of Homo sapiens first migrating into Europe as the current ice age began to abate around 25-30KYA.

    The lighter, smaller, leaner, faster-moving prey animals they were used to hunting migrated with them. As the woolly mammoths and other large, slow, fat-rich (for insulation) prey animals died off or migrated to arctic regions, this left the Neanderthals (who were also slow-moving and well-insulated, and in addition were too dense to swim across the newly liquid rivers) with a poor food supply. They interbred with the incoming Homo sapiens and today the average European has about 5% Neanderthal DNA, but there have been no Neanderthal populations for about 20K years.

    However, those first sapiens colonists were surely not Indo-Europeans. The I-E people arrived about 5,000 years ago, with the twin technologies of farming and animal husbandry that comprise agriculture and ushered in the Neolithic Era. This put them at a tremendous advantage over the hunter-gatherers who were already there--the people we call the "Cro-Magnon."

    The only people in Europe who are not of Indo-European ancestry (or descendants of even more recent immigrants such as the Finns, Magyars, Jews, Moors and Turks) are the Basques. Their language is not related to any other known language, and their DNA, while contaminated by many centuries of intermarriage with Indo-Europeans, is clearly not Indo-European DNA.

    Unfortunately, the Cro-Magnon fossils are too old to extract their DNA, so we'll probably never know if the Basques are their descendants.
  17. Amar Nath Reu Be your own guru Registered Senior Member

    Wikipedia: "The last glacial period, popularly known as the Ice Age, was the most recent glacial period within the current ice age occurring during the last years of the Pleistocene, from approximately 110,000 to 12,000 BP. .. During this period, there were several changes between glacier advance and retreat. The maximum extent of glaciation within this last glacial period was approximately 22,000 BP."

    So, the max was about 22,000. There were highs and lows. There were people who hovered around the edges of sheets, moving South when it peaked and moving North when it was low. Perhaps these were the PIE people, herders. By 12,000 BP some of these people moved farther South never to return. By 8,000 BP they were in Kazakh steppes, by 6,000 BP in Europe and Central Asia.

    This is only a scenario consistent with Avesta and RigVeda, and with history of Europe and Asia. I am not advancing a theory.
  18. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    homo-sapiens-neanderthalensis were not homogeneous. the eastern neanderthals were more gracile than the later western european neanderthals. It was this eastern, more gracile neanderthal branch which was the most likely breeders with early homo-sapiens-sapiens. 20% of the neanderthal genome is preserved within modern homo-sapiens-sapiens.
  19. kerux Registered Senior Member

    From the title alone, it seems the one who asked neither logically analyze the oral traditions of mankind nor dissect primitive thoughts of mankind. If history books doesn't conclude that early settlers of the earth usually placed themselves beside the waters, we have somehow to deduce that primitive people didn't live farthest from watered places. Therefore, because there were very near to seashores or riverbanks, they usually experienced floodings and thereby concocted stories which seemed to run in the veins of mankind regarding great flood. But actually there were only 8 people inside Noah's ark. This family, to shorten this message, scattered throughout Asia. One of them founded Egypt who was Ham. If you wat to read details about Biblical explanations, you can go to https://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/05/30/the-truth-about-noah-and-the-worldwide-flood/
  20. Amar Nath Reu Be your own guru Registered Senior Member

    Is it not that more ancient people have lived in relatively arid places?
  21. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Most likely: not.
    Archaeology shares having to recognize probabilities rather than certainties.
    Each find leads to assumptions which lead to better questions.
    The farther back we go, the less evidence we find. And, the time represented in those finds expands almost exponentially to the time past.
    Most likely, early hunter gatherers were too mobile to store much food, so they would need to find more food each day, and, most likely, that would not have been happening in "relatively arid places" as opposed to river valleys and lake and sea shores.
    The assumption being, that the primary producers(which provide much of the gatherer part of the died) are healthier, more productive, and denser where they have a steady supply of water. These then nourish the herbivores( which provide the hunter part of the diet) which are more abundant and diverse where the primary producers thrive.

    Much depends on where the circumstances were favorable for preservation of the bodies, artifacts, and associated biological material.
  22. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    It's only a legend. Noah, like Adam, and most other characters in the Bible, is a purely fictional character, like Paul Bunyon or Johnny Appleseed. The Flood Myth in the Bible evolved from the Mesopotamian Flood Myth which was found in several places. Most notably, it was written onto clay tablets found at the ruins of the Library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh. The walls were found laying over the vault of the library, suggesting that when Nineveh was destroyed, the defense forces toppled the walls over the vault to protect them from the attackers. It worked. Thus we have evidence of the older Flood Myth from which the legend of Noah was adapted.


    Further, in the Second Creation Myth (Gen 2) Adam is again created, this time from soil or clay, by Yahweh. This retelling of the First Creation Myth, in which the gods of Ugarit created Adam "in our likeness" incorporates the explanation for human origins taken from the Gilgamesh Epic. There, the first man, Enkidu, is fashioned from clay, and life is "breathed into it" by the Mesopotamian god Aruru, who was the Mesopotamian equivalent of one of the Elohim from Gen 1.


    An enclave of Jews, believed to be 10,000 individuals, was held captive in Babylon close to the period during which the Library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh was flourishing.

    No wonder, then, that they adopted some of the Babylonian ideas, adapted to fit the earlier Judaic creation tradition that had been borrowed from Ugarit. Hence, no wonder then that in Genesis they mention Ashurbanipal as the founder of Nineveh.

    Nonsense. This is another obvious legend, to attempt to explain how humans diversified into races originating from one ancestor. The origin of modern humans in Africa is well established, owing to a fusion of two chromosomes found in chimps and other apes.

    Nonsense. Egypt, Ugarit, Phonecia, Assyria and Sumer, just to mention a few, were cultures that long existed before the proto Jewish cult arose in the Levant.

    The Bible even admits that such places preceded them in history.

    What is needed is to debunk the nonsense of treating myth, legend and fable as historical narrative worthy of literal interpretation.

    To blindly accept such nonsense is to deny the truth of history.
    Amar Nath Reu likes this.
  23. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

    It's more a matter of choice of medium and mode of preservation than date per se. Vellum outlasts papyrus, parchment, wood and paper, while clay, stone, bone and teeth outlast them all.

    Thus we have literature outside of the proto Judaic cults, thousands of years older than the oldest codex of the Bible.

    This is yet another reason for rejecting the OP.
    Amar Nath Reu and sideshowbob like this.

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