Why So Many Great Flood Traditions?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by Arne Saknussemm, Aug 10, 2014.

  1. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    from the op:
    How do archaeological constraints reject that part of the op?
     
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  3. Amar Nath Reu Be your own guru Registered Senior Member

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    Aqueous Id, no need to tell them. In their heart, they do not believe it. That is why they use modern medicine. Those who don't, are the real Bible-believing Christians.
     
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  5. kerux Registered Senior Member

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    Haha, of course this is legend "This, the eleventh tablet of the Epic, describes the meeting of Gilgamesh with Utnapishtim. Like Noah in the Hebrew Bible, Utnapishtim had been forewarned of a plan by the gods to send a great flood. He built a boat and loaded it with all his precious possessions, his kith and kin, domesticated and wild animals and skilled craftsmen of every kind." From this quotation alone, I know that this concoction was a product of envy due to lack of realization. The Noah in the Bible exactly gave the number of people inside the Ark and that was 8. And because it mentioned Mt. Ararat, that legend mentioned another location still out of envy.


    As I tell analytically, Creation myths were widespread those times because anti-Adamic race couldn't accept a leader named Moses who portrayed outstanding pestilences in the eyes of the Egyptian Pharaoh when Moses was 80 years old already. It's as simple as a child who owned a toy car and his envious friend says "that toy car is of low-grade quality, mine is superior." This creation myths of Enkidu can't survive because it is nonsense copied from the Bible and omitting the existence of giant races because if that Enkidu writer would include "stories of giant races", they can't show skeletons of giants who seemed to be the ones responsible of forming STONEHENGES.

    "Jonah 1:1 The word of the Lord came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jonah 1

    As gullible people agree with legends told by fallen angels, this Jonah was instructed by the Almighty God to go to Nineveh. And why Jonah? Of all people existing those days? Think!

    Borrowed from Uragit? Nonsense, primitive Ugarit people worshipped gods [fallen angels]. How would they write down those legends had it not them told to them by knowledgeable beings[i.e., fallen angels]. Remember Rael? that author of Intelligent Design? How could he concoct such stories, had it not been for "fallen angels" who appeared to him feigning to be "aliens" lol.


    You were deceived already and you thought all creation stories are simply delusions. You stick to the book of Ethnologist Dawkins! I guess, you have similar chimpanzee genes.


    Of course, the Creator will not automatically divulge truths to anyone at any age. It's enough that He knew the doings of those fallen angels - to confuse humankind. That's why He picked up select few. According to Mashable.com 2009 "Most Educational to Follow", Jews are Special People in the sight of the Creator. [ https://esoriano.wordpress.com/2007/10/19/the-special-people-that-are-the-jews/ ]

    "Atheos" is always an evil term from "theos." Why? because of envy. Thousand of years had passed, there is still no solid group worldwide with proof-laden precepts of "atheism."
     
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  7. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    No, you are missing a critical piece of information. The Mesopotamian story predates the Hebrew one. Not sure what you mean by "concoction". All religion is based in myth, therefore all are equally subject to the same criticism.

    No, the Hebrews were exposed to this earlier story from the older Mesopotamian cultures.
    There is no evidence that the Hebrew people had any such encounter with the Egyptians. As I mentioned above, there was a Hebrew settlement on Elephantine Island, but it's too far away to have anything to do with the story given in the Bible. Also, there are no records of any such encounters with Hebrews in Egyptian writings. Therefore, in all probability, there never was any enslavement of the Hebrews by the Egyptians. Most likely this is purely a legend, based on some primal fear of the superiority of their neighbors to the south.

    The envy you speak of permeates the Old Testament. Even Yahweh is jealous of other gods.

    Other way around. The Bible version copied from the older Mesopotamian myth. You can deduce this yourself by trying to learn how the various legends and myths are dated.

    No one knows for sure what that is supposed to mean. It may be a translation error, since "giant" and "great" are synonyms. The "great" people of Mesopotamian legend were most likely the Sumerian Kings. But the Hebrews may have also encountered giant statues and then a legend arose that they were true to scale. The possibilities are limitless. But it's all myth, legend and fable.

    It's just their own local myth. Same with the Hebrews - they have no knowledge of geography outside of the Levant and a few points east.

    How did the Hebrew people know what was going on in Nineveh? This is one of the great cities of the ancient world, across the river from Mosul, Iraq. And what period of time was this alleged wickedness taking place? Which nation was in control of the city - who was being wicked? Were they Assyrians, Ancient Babylonians, Chaldeans... or any of the many other cultures that controlled the city? It was thousands of years old by the time the Hebrew people even came into existence.

    To answer this, go to 2 Kings: So Sennacherib king of Assyria departed, and went and returned, and dwelt at Nineveh. Most likely they are recalling legends still circulating during the Babylonian captivity. And whether they are lashing out at the Assyrians or the neo-Babylonians remains to be seen. But you would need to learn a little of this history to follow that story, to figure out what they are actually talking about.

    Since the Persians probably invented the myths about angels, doesn't that require a little gullibility to assume that such creatures exist?

    If you ask me to think I am going to pound you with facts and information. I am not sure you can handle it. Let's start by learning the history. When is this taking place? Start there, and ask yourself what the Babylonian captivity did to the self esteem of "God's chosen people". Can you imagine what they thought of their captors?

    No, fact. You just need to take a class in Ancient History and Mythology.

    It was a lot more advanced than the primitive Hebrew culture, which evidently relied on farming and herding. For one thing it had a written language a long time before they did. And it is obvious that the Hebrew people are related to them linguistically. Most importantly, this traces the origins of the Elohim of Gen 1. it is a reference to the Ugaritic pantheon. Thus the God who you were told created "the heavens and the Earth" in the first sentence of the Bible is not God, but the gods, the gods of Ugarit.

    Uh, no. The Elohim "created the heavens and the Earth". Go read the first sentence in your Bible, and then find the original text in Hebrew and tell me what it says.

    Oral tradition. How does any myth or legend propagate?

    Uh, no. Intelligent Design is just an excuse for refusing to study the facts and evidence of history, anthropology and physical sciences.

    Speak for yourself. Which of us is referring to evidence?

    Well, uh, does that mean you agree that the universe was created by the pieces of the slain dragon-mother Tiamat, strewn across the sky by Marduk? You should! Because Marduk is the god who gave Hammurabi his famous book of laws, which were adopted into the Bible in several places, such as the 10 Commandments. So now who is having delusions again?

    Here is your God, slaying the Dragon, when he was creating the world. One of your Gods, I should say. There were/are so many:

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    And you don't? Aha, so you aren't even human. Got it.

    Of course not. Everything has to be guarded since myths need to be protected from facts. But at any point, feel free to go investigate the evidence yourself.

    All of that equivocating and subterfuge will not get you one inch closer to the facts. All you need is to develop yourself. Start studying from accredited academic sources. The truth shall set you free.

    Nonsense. That is how the Jewish people tried to raise their self esteem during periods of extreme hardship. conquest and failure.

    Well since that has no basis in fact it really doesn't matter. Try reading some history for starters. Try to establish the dates of the Bible passages you are citing and compare those dates to the Babylonian captivity. Work on your critical thinking skills.

    That's pretty funny, since it's a Greek term. Socrates was convicted to death for being an atheist, since he only believed in one god. Now are you sure you still want to call yourself a lover of "theos"?

    That's ridiculous. Atheism is the rejection of a religious belief in a God or gods. Unless of course you want to use the term in its original meaning, as I mentioned above.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  8. Amar Nath Reu Be your own guru Registered Senior Member

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    Mesopotamians probably took it from PIE myths. Only that they substituted a water deluge for a snow deluge which is mentioned in Zoroastrian Gathas.
     
  9. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Except that the oldest texts are from Mesopotamia. Scholars often give a lot of leeway as to the age of some of the other myths from other cultures, but it is without strong evidence, since they did not preserve them in clay as the Mesopotamians did.
     
  10. Amar Nath Reu Be your own guru Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, Aryans did not put it on tablets (they were with their cows in steppes). They had/still have the oral tradition. Only that is correct, because even the sound is important for us.

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  11. Hapsburg Hellenistic polytheist Valued Senior Member

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    A myth being omnipresent isn't proof of that myth being literally true. For that, you need physical evidence. The various flood myths more have to do with mytho-poetic truth: floods happen, and they are destructive, but we (as a people, tribe, culture, society, etc.) can rise above it and survive.
     
  12. KitemanSA Registered Senior Member

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    There are many pieces of physical evidence that great floods happened. Note I said "great floods", not "The Great Flood". Given so many people being driven around the world by so many different great floods, it seems only reasonable that there would be many myths based on them. And given that most of the great floods would have been related to the flooding of the ocean at the end of the last ice age, having all the myths about them being ~ contemporary is only to be expected.
     
  13. wellwisher

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    Mythology is based on symbolism and represents a collective projection of the state of the human psyche. The modern analogy is good art that can anticipate the future. For example, Impressionist Art appears about the time of the Industrial Revolution, when the clarity of rural farm life is replaced by the unknowns of urban factories; clarity is lost. Abstract art appears in anticipation of relativity; no fixed frame of reference including relative good and evil.

    The great flood myths were a symbolic art that anticipated and described a major change. There is a cleaning of the slate with a new beginning appearing. This was not an industrial revolution, but something that impacted all of humanity at about the same time frame. This is inferred by the myth being in all places.

    Before humans had willpower and choice; they were under natural human instinct; paradise. With instinct you know what to do without needing to think to much. With the onset of willpower and choice came having to make one own decisions apart from instinct, which is not always healthy.

    An analogy is the child has his mother and father taking care of the logistics, setting the rules and the schedules so they play. Say mom and dad go to work and leave the child to fend for himself; willpower and loss of instinct. One might go through the motions of the schedule; fix lunch, and do ones best to copy the parents. But one is young and can't do the same as an adult. When new things appear, out of the ordinary; sink is clogged, the loss of the parents means one has to make choices but lacks a good foundation. The result is a decline.

    The Great flood myths suggests a change after the decline due to willpower and choice coming in conflict with needs of natural instinct. The collection of two of each animal, male and female, anticipated a return toward natural instinct; parents return to set the house straight. After the flood, there is a better balance between will power and the ancient ways of instinct. Not much later the major players like Egypt start to appear. Human found a new sweet spot that allows unconscious balance.

    Water is connected to thoughts. A great flood would be analogous to the mind racing in stress due to the fear of being swallowed up; psychosis, The potential with natural instinct, due to willpower, got too high. The potential needed to be released, but on a collective scale since law and traditions fixed the bad for all. After the collective psychosis instinct is restored with willpower learning to strike a better balance. From that change empires appear.
     
  14. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    The volcanic eruption and resulting tsunami around 1600BCE, which caused tremendous damage to the island of Thera (now renamed Santorini), was very probably the event that caused the collapse of Minoan civilization (which was based on Crete). This destabilized the region politically and culturally, and its repercussions cascaded for generations. This is exactly the kind of event that spawns legends.
     
  15. KitemanSA Registered Senior Member

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    Similarly the great Norway slide innundated Doggerland at the end of the last ice age. Fits the Atlantis legend quite well.
     
  16. wellwisher

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    One way to explain all the myths of Great Floods, in so many different locations, is due to climate change. Climate change will shift weather patterns and thereby allow various places all over the world to see weather extremes like great floods.

    The ancient natural climate change would have been attributed to God, instead of man. The religions placed god at the top as the driving force for change and would look for reasons connected to god. The atheists, place the human ego at the top, so they will attribute their great flood, to their god; man.

    The modern mythology of the impending great flood, due to climate change, was scripted a decade ago. This great flood will be due to the north pole melting. This has never really happened, like no geological evidence of the past flood of Noah. In both cases, the myth is used to leverage behavior via fear. The liberals are cast as the family of modern Noah with the conservative the evil that need to be purged; proactively. One can take a person out of religion but not religion out of a person.

    Mythology is a projection from the collective unconscious. Like a movie shining onto reality, this projection will help make the collective unconscious conscious by externalizing it with stories and imagery. The new myth of the great flood, melts the north pole. Water symbolizes thoughts, with ice implying solid thoughts that are firm like stone. The melting of age old truths; ice, into relative truth; fluid, turns solid into fluid. Without firm intellectual footing, this runs the risk of people becoming overwhelmed as their thought structure breaks down into chaos; drown in the flood. The terrorist is not a criminal but is a misunderstood freedom fighter who kills innocent people.

    Conservatives don't buy into the atheist mythology of the great modern flood, the same as the liberals do. The unconscious of the conservative projects differently. They don't anticipate being part of the dissociation; the zombie class. For example, Obama is not fighting the social dissociation due to ISIS by defining the enemy as Muslim extremists; ice. He tries to stay fluid to help the flood. Lying is not solid but relative or fluid.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
  17. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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  18. Kristoffer Giant Hyrax Valued Senior Member

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    And what does that picture have to do with great floods?
     
  19. sculptor Valued Senior Member

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    not much---while standing alone
    kind of a knee jerk reaction

    however
    when we look to Horus as the winged sun disk, and see the same image in Mesopotamia:

    Relief depicting Gilgamesh between two bull-men supporting a winged sun disk, from Tell-Halaf, Syria

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    One ancient story ties into another ties into another ties into another, forming a somewhat disjointed, and united universal body of works.
    When we know what was shared across different cultures, then we have a broader, if no more clear, picture of the origins of these stories.
     
  20. wellwisher

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    Ancient sculptures were projections from the ancient unconscious mind. They tell us about the human mind of an era and reflect the personality firmware or the archetypes of the collective unconscious, at that time in history.

    The two half-man and half-bull are composite archetypes composed of natural instinct and cultural or human rules of instinct; civilized instinct. This instinct is polarized but not as good and evil, but rather appears to be depicting the two side of the brain, which process the same data differently. The life side is more differential while the right side is more spatial.

    The man in the center has his lower body pointing in the direction of the one on the right (on his left side) with his left foot pinned by the right hoof of the right side man-bull. The brain is crossed wired, so his left side of the body represents the right side of the brain or spatial processing of the brain. This is anchoring him to the earth; instinct and habits are spatial; intuitive wisdom. His lower body facing that way shows this, also.

    The white circle at the top is a symbol of the inner self. The inner self is the center of the collective unconscious mind. The wings show the inner self is in the air, instead of touching the earth. The hunches from the inner self are intuitive and not yet tangible. It two wings again shows this hitting both sides of the brain, with both specific and general hunches appearing,with the man anchored with a spatial perception of the world.

    This time in archetype development was natural mixed with cultural; intuitive instinct, that is less rule dependent and more free flowing yet effective. The thing I like most about religion and their symbols is it is a road map to the history of the human psyche.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2015
  21. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    There is evidence supporting the notion of a flood in the Middle East recent enough to be remembered by humans living in the Middle East.

    The Black & Mediterranean Seas lose more water by evaporation than that supplied by rainfall & rivers feeding into them. The Mediterranean is fed from the Atlantic Ocean via the Straits of Gibralter. The Black sea is fed from the Mediterranean .

    There is evidence that the Mediterranean completely evaporated, although not recently enough to
    be remembered by any humans. I do not remember any articles indicting that the Black Sea completely evaporated, but I suspect that it did.

    There is evidence that the Bosporus and/or the Dardanelles Straits were closed, allowing the Black sea to partially evaporate. There are human settlements circa 200 feet below the current level of the Black Sea.

    BTW: The Sea of Marmara is between the two straits.

    These villages were flooded when one or both straits opened. This occurred recently enough to be remembered & passed down by oral tradition to people living in the Middle East. The extent of the flood was apparently exaggerated over many generations of the story being retold.
     
  22. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Erased duplicated Post.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Seems to me that every global event is celebrated by all who were subject to its effects. In science we have the Great Extinction tradition.

    It is just that in days of old theses events were attributed to "acts of god". We still use the term today.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2015

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