Why would evolution create a higher state of consciousness?

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by John J. Bannan, Jul 31, 2007.

  1. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    I get you friend, but enlightment is very far from being a physical state. And the funny thing about it is, you don´t need to believe in it in order to reach it, as a matter of fact, if you believe in enlightment, you need to drop that believe in order to obtain it; because enlightment is an experience, some say it cannot be described in words.

    But this is my understanding of Buddha´s "First Noble Truth" (life is suffering). Life is suffering because most people never realize their purpose in life, and they live only a karmic life, full of suffering, and non-understanding. When I say you will get other chances, it is because you have learned something in this life, but you need to keep paying for your karma (suffering) until you understand it, and step away from the karmic cycle.
     
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  3. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    Enlighment is nothing but steping away from the karmic cycle, no more re-births, because you have reached your karmic peak.
     
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  5. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    O.K. If enlightenment is not a physical state, then it was not designed by evolution and is simply a philosophy - a man made idea. As for the belief that life is suffering, that's an interesting idea. I tend to think that evolution has engineered us to actually enjoy suffering or struggle. That's why we like crossword puzzles. Wouldn't it make sense that evolution would engineer an organism that actually enjoys struggling with the environment? Wouldn't that organism be more successful? Yes, life might be suffering, but we are designed to enjoy it. It gives us purpose and meaning. This is the flaw in enlightenment and why it doesn't physically exist.
     
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  7. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    We are creators of our reality, to be able to create a reality without the limits we impose on ourselves is enlightment. Yes, you can call it philosophy, you can call it hope; but it is in fact the truth behind all religions.
     
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    I see some flaws in your assumptions, John. I think it is physical. I think the capacity for this state did evolve, but humans are unique in that we are more than what evolution made us. This is due to culture. There is something called cultural insanity. That is a kind of insanity that is taught, like mass hysteria, and not due to innate physical traits. I think our society is caught in something like this. Our natural state is one in which suffering isn't as problematic to our psyche as it is in modern society. Since we lack the perspective of enlightenment, our suffering transcends mere physical pain or discomfort. Elightenment is not the absense of problems in dealing with the world, nor is it the absense of physical pain. It is the absense of mental disfunction and anxiety in your dealings with the world. It's as if our brains can work in one of several states. Through some mental trigger, there is suddenly a shift to another stable state, like the planet's shift from an ice age to a modern climate. I suggest this other stable state is more basic to our nature, and that the modern psyche is the newer one, less stable, less evolved, less able to deal with hardship and more volnerable to breakdown. That is why modern people seem to be so unhappy despite our technological advances.
     
  9. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    Why would our modern psyche be less evolved? Isn't newer more evolved? Are you talking about reverting back to our fish brains as enlightenment? If so, then I can see how such a state could still exist in our minds, and that such a state had an evolutionary advantage at some point in our past development. By why follow our fish brains, when we can use our more advanced homosapien brains?
     
  10. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Humanity existed for millions of years before civilization. I'm not suggesting that enlightenment is a return to so primitive a pattern as our fish ancestors, but something more recent (this is just speculation).

    Our modern culture is not the result of evolution, except in the sense that evolution made it possible. If you consider our brains like the hardware, and culture like the software, then our brains evolved to run AfricaMan 1.0, but we are forcing it to run NewYorkCityMan 2.3. NewYorkCityMan 2.3 is better for the cultural environment we created, but it's running on old hardware, so there are bugs.

    In the mythology of Buddhism they always talk about the "old masters", about a time when there was no talk about enlightenment because it was how everyone was, it was the natural state of being.
     
  11. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    O.K. That I can understand, and how it may have a place in evolution. You want to go back to before man had language, no?
     
  12. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Language is a very interesting subject with respect to enlightenment. Behind it's symbolic nature is a lie. It's like a net that chops reality into bits.

    I recommend the work "Seeing Through the Net", by Alan Watts. (mp3 lecture series)

    http://www.alanwatts.com/raudio_index.html
     
  13. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    Well, true - language cannot give you a 100% accurate reflection of reality. But, what senses can? Sight, touch, taste, smell, hearing - they are all limited. Are you saying that enlightenment uses a perfect sixth sense?
     
  14. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    YES
     
  15. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    What organ houses that sixth sense, then?
     
  16. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    Not at all. The senses are all we have to percieve the world.

    This state is just the functional activity of life. By life I do not mean something abstract but the life of the senses functioning naturally without the interference of thought. Thought is an interloper which thrusts itself into the affairs of the senses. It has a profit motive. Thought directs the activity of the senses to get something out of them and uses them to give continuity to itself.

    U.G. Krishnamurti
     
  17. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    Apparently, Spidergoat's understanding of enlightenment is not the same as Wisdom Seeker's. Who to question?
     
  18. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    That would be another thread I think; I don´t think a specific organ has that attribute, it is more likely to be our whole immune system.
     
  19. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    I agree with spidergoat in everything he said on this thread
     
  20. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

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    There is a kind of perfection or purity that occurs, which I think is what WS refers to. It may indeed involve some gland or other, like the thalmus or pineal gland. The truth of the thing cannot be captured in words, so one person's description will be different from another's.
     
  21. John J. Bannan Registered Senior Member

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    A state of not thinking. But, don't we think even without using words? Don't we think in pictures? Are you saying enlightenment can only come when we aren't thinking at all? In other words, we have to be essentially non-functioning, because after all, you have to think to get up and go to the bathroom. Where's that pesky bathroom, anyway?
     
  22. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, as a fact, we may seem to contradict each other. But enlightment is indeed beyond words; if you say that enlightment is "this", then you are intrinsically saying that enlightment is not "that"; but actually, enlightment is unity, not separation, it is beyond the duality of words.

    With words, we can only understand what to do in order to pursuit that, but we cannot fully express the whole experience; even "Gautam the Buddha" and "Yeshua the Christ" had their way of explaining the same thing, take it as they were "poets of enlightment".
     
  23. Wisdom_Seeker Speaker of my truth Valued Senior Member

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    You are getting close; you have to go beyond the mind. There is a lot to know about "the nothing"; in fact most of the Universe is empty, but emptiness contains more information than we can possibly imagine.

    The fact is, with no mind, our true nature arises. There are many techniques and non-techniques to reach this state. Fasting for 20 days straight is for the mere purpose of achieving this no-mind state; when the belly is empty, your mind will become empty as well. After 20 days of fasting, it is said that you will start experiencing entire hours of non-thinking; after you gain control over this, you can stop the fasting and go to this “no-mind” state whenever you want to.

    In “Mind control methods”, you are taught to go to this “no-mind” state, which they call “Alpha level of the brain”, we are normally in “Beta level”. So after you achieve this “Alpha level” of the mind, you can start hypnotizing yourself to do all sorts of unusual stuff; but this is another subject.
     

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