Wire tap probe killed

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Mystech, May 11, 2006.

  1. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

    Roughly everything where you talk about spy satelites and drug testing, and oooh the creepy military, as if it means anything.
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  3. leopold Valued Senior Member

    again you must be shitting me
    don't you get it? the military is not bound by fisa, the courts, the president, NOBODY.
    and you ask how it's relevant?
    it is very relevant my freind especially when the military can conduct experiments without approval or oversight of any kind.
    and you are worried about the president spying on people?

    as far as the capabilities of the military is concerned the president is a nothing, a nobody

    and it just isn't the military it's the cia, you know, the intelligence gathering arm of the government?

    the spy programs of the government been going way before they were made public in 1978 when fisa was enacted.
    thats how it's relevant, it's been going on for years and years purpetrated by the cia and military but when the president does it it's some kind of big deal.
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  5. leopold Valued Senior Member

    which doesn't make me a conspiracy theorist nut-job
    i was simply stating the facts.
    i wonder why you feel creepy about it?
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  7. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

    First off, thanks for hijacking this thread, you troll, second are you fucking retarted? No no, sorry, that was too rhetorical:


    There, that's better.

    The military reports to both the brass in the pentagon and is under the direct control of the President, which is why they call him the commander in cheif, imagine that. He's the executive head of the military as well as the nation.

    Also, the Military does not need a fisa court because it isn't a fucking police agency, it's not supposed to operate inside the United States unless there's a war on our soil, so get off it already.

    There we go, this is why I call you a conspiracy theorist nut-job. You're making wild claims which are factually incorrect and frankly just so far out there that I don't know how you can even take yourself seriously.

    Aside from the fact that they're an organization wich is ultimately under the President's executive control, yeah, oops.

    The CIA, yes, again, an Executive agency. At this point I don't know what sort of argument you're trying to make here.

    Right, and there was an uproar and we tried to limit power and create systems for accountability, systems which are now breaking down. I don't see how anything that you've pointed out (even the true stuff) makes the slightest bit of difference. Fisa courts are being ignored, there is no oversight, it is never right for a government agency to have this sort of power and to probe so deeply into the privacy of US citizens for any reason - we established that in the 70s, but now we're letting the President pick and choose what laws he is bound by and what new powers he wants. It's just wrong.
  8. leopold Valued Senior Member

    like i said it must be nice to be young and dumb
    there is nothing incorrect about anything i posted in this thread mystech.
    if you want to believe that there is oversight in the the military then bury your head or better yet go hide under your bed and cower.

    i know this, when the military can spray chemicals into the air and not be responsible to nobody then it is relevant. if you do not want to beleive they don't i don't know what to say.

    as far as the other thread goes it discusses the very thing this thread is about.

    in your opinion what is it i said that is not factual?
  9. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

    I think I layed that out. The picture you paint of the military as our evil unacountable overlord isn't particularly apt, and is irrelevent to this thread. Saying that they're accoutable to no-one is utterly rediculous.
  10. leopold Valued Senior Member

    i never said the military is evil
    and no you have not said what statement of mine is not factual.

    mystech do you realize that the military have murdered innocent unsuspecting people in their quest for information?
    they have deliberatly infected many people during their research.
    they used to be accountable to the mayors of the cities that they conduct their research in but no longer. as of this date they are responsible to no one, nobody.

    the relevance to this thread is this:
    people gripe and complain because the president spies on people and at what harm?
    on the other hand this nations military can inflict untold suffering on INNOCENT u.s. citizens, even murder and they are not accountable.
    that is the relevance mystech.

    the question i have about all of this is who is behind all the hoopla about g.w.b spying? they must fear something about it, i wonder what that could be?
  11. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

    Congradulations, you are now dead to me!
  12. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

    I'm sure you know there are already people whose 'profession' is to dig through other people's trash and sniff for unshredded sensitive information, etc. Like I said before, the intelligence agencies being the intelligence agencies, I'm sure they can find out anything they damn please about you if some 16 year old with good computer skills can borrow your identity.

    What possibly could intelligence agencies benefit from selling the ordinary American's personal information? Maybe trading information on a terrorist with interpol/british secret service (or whatever) but I don't see how selling Amerian citizens information on such a scale is even useful.

    Unless the information they are recording is anymore special than what some other determined individual could get on his own (and according to the article it is no where close to being so), then fretting over this is like complaining about marijuana when there's tobacco all around.

    Think about it. If someone really wanted to buy/or otherwise obtain someone's call records, they wouldn't have to go all the way through the NSA/CIA to do so. Until there's any remotely feasible explanation of what objectionable thing the bureaucratic, incompetent government could be doing with the information of millions, I think you're just arguing 'civil liberties' for 'civil liberties' sake (you don't have a secondary reason).

    As for civil liberties, the government can again get anyone's information it damn pleases without the nosiest reporter ever finding out. After all, only a few years back there used to be a website I went to where I could look up address histories, phone numbers, etc of practically anyone in America FOR FREE. I looked up my own family members and found them on that database.

    With this experience maybe you can see why I think your objections rest on a weak foundation. There's only an infringement of 'civil liberties' when you know one has been committed. In this case I can't fathom at all what bad thing 'the Bush administration' could possibly care to do with this.

    Did I mention that some 'pundits' are already freely talking about a law being passed requiring biometrics identification for one and all? That's a similar scenario anyway; the government collects with great hassle the information of persons it could track down (if it really wished to) at the click of a button.
  13. Mystech Adult Supervision Required Registered Senior Member

    Be that as it may, it's still actually illegal

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I guess like a lot of sheeple, you don't seem to really get all of the implications of this sort of datamining being preformed by our government on we the people. When our own federal government and intelligence agencies are performing this sort of action without regard for adherence to law (which they've already shown that they have no respect for) it can be used for any purpose at all, especially illegitimate ones, as there's simply no oversight for this sort of thing when they're all in on it. What if Bush were want to pull a Nixon - he wouldn't even have to break into any buildings, G. Gordon Liddy is out of a job!

    As far as finding potential terrorists go this information that they're collecting is relatively useless, however when it comes to finding out dirt on political enemies within your own country, people who you already know are against you, because they happen to think they live in a safe and free society and voice their opinions openly, the consequences can be devastating. And thanks to sheep like you who are completely fine with giving up such privileges of privacy we will never again have that right.

    Simply put it's entirely inappropriate for the government to be keeping track of who's calling who when and for how long - just as inappropriate in fact as it is to illegally tap phones without warrants in direct violation of laws put there to protect our civil liberties, and especially wrong to do so because you're apparently taping so many phones that you don't feel a FISA court could keep up with your warrant requests, regardless of the fact that they're allowed to file them afterward. That's simply not Government's roll, it certainly violates our rites to unreasonable searches and security in our personal effects, and serves no purpose other than to march us ever closer to being a totalitarian police state.
  14. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Last edited: May 13, 2006
  15. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

    Apart from calling me a 'sheep', I find nothing new in your post.

    You still just don't get it.

    ANY PERSON DETERMINED ENOUGH CAN find out anything he/she wants to on a friend, a 'political enemy', a school teacher, or Bobo the clown. There is nothing special about the government accessing information that can in any case be obtained through secret methods.

    Say you were a terrorist and the CIA suspects this. I'm sure if they wanted to find out who you were talking to, they wouldn't HAVE to go through your phone company. The fact that they were going through your phone company to access your records is good reason to believe they aren't doing anything 'objectionable' with your information. If 'political enemies' is really what they're after, I'm sure they wouldn't need to have culled millions of records.


    How stupid would it be if the government, wanting to do something 'objectionable' using of all things records of phone numbers called, formally went through the phone companies? I would understand if they were secretly harvesting DNA from newborns or something that could even remotely be said to be 'wrong'. But phone numbers!?

    In that case you might as well say phone books have the potential to undermine civil liberties because the information in them could fall into the wrong hands - the point being any person who wants to badly enough can obtain a list of phone records.

    Besides which, with the job investigative reporters are doing, there isn't much dirt left to uncover on anyone. This may be unethical/undemocratic in principle and I accept that, but to concoct reasons why the government could be using information irresponsibly. I'm no fan of the federal government, but I won't use that as a crutch to criticize every single action taken by it without a solid reason.
  16. leopold Valued Senior Member

    that is what i don't understand about mystech. he harps on the president doing something illegal but relativly harmless but when i point out the atrocities of the military i'm retarded. judging by his posts he wasn't even aware the military has been doing what i pointed out to him.
  17. jps Valued Senior Member

    The military has done(and probably is doing) a lot of bad stuff. However, they still have to obey the law. They may do stuff secretly or find loopholes, but ultimately, if proof emerged that someone in the military were, for example, using their sattelites to gather and store information on U.S. citizens for recruitment purposes, they would face criminal charges.
    At least thats how its supposed to work.

    Whats disturbing about whats happening now is that the Bush administration has been shown to have ordered illegal activity, and they are insisting that the laws don't apply to them. The fact that their illegal activity hasn't been shown to have hurt anyone is totally irrelevant.

    Consider an analogy: You come home to find that someone has picked your lock and is in your house watching tv. When confronted he says that there have been a lot of robberies in this part of town and he is randomly entering and staying in houses in the hopes of catching robbers in the act. Would you thank thank him for his services in light of the fact that he hasn't hurt anything?
  18. leopold Valued Senior Member

    since when does the military obey the law?
    scrounge up one, just one, name of a military man that paid for the crimes at edgewood arsenal.
    your statement about the satellites does not apply because sattelites do not store information they gather and transmit it only

    what is so illegal about watching people that has ties to known terrorists?
    bush has repeated over and over and over that is what he is doing.

    now let me ask you a question, do you beleive that there are spies from foreign governments in our government?
    do you see now why bushs plan has merit?
  19. jps Valued Senior Member

    From what I've read of the edgewood thing the army is denying that any civilians were exposed to anything, and there's no proof that they were. If proof emerged, and the people involved are still around its likely they would be punished, and at the very least the people who were exposed would sue the army for a fortune.

    How does this affect my example in any way? So if someone in the military were found to have used a satellite to gather information on americans, and then wrote the information down, they would face legal consequences.

    Look at my analogy. So the guy who broke into your house says over and over that he was in the house to watch for robbers. Would you accept this?

    What does this have to do with anything?
  20. leopold Valued Senior Member

  21. leopold Valued Senior Member

    you sure? i don't think the government or the military paid for their crimes at edgewood or the myraid of other places they used human guinea pigs.

Share This Page