Wisdom

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by wesmorris, Dec 28, 2002.

  1. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    susan,

    Providing wisdom for others is one of the things a wise person would do. Eventhough it is better not to give wisdom until someone asks you. However, with the present conditions of this world I would say: "Forget that anyone is asking. Just give it. If they accept, good; if not, too bad, is their's own free will...."
     
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  3. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker. I like some of what you said because it is poetic and appeals to my emotional side. I do however, think you are the victim of the christianity meme and you attempts at wisdom are horribly tainted as such.

    I don't believe in the spirit or soul. I don't think it's impossible either. I wish I knew but would never be so presumptuous (unless new evidence (which I'm sure you cannot provide - and please don't try, I've seen all that theist/christians have to offer) were presented) with some kind of religious/"hey you have a soul because.. blah blah" implications were discovered.

    Statements like "The only route to Truth is God's Faith" sicken me to the bone, telling me you've abandoned reason and you a hopeless and scary to me, for we can never truly communicate. You are dead wrong. The only route to a mind virus is God's Faith. The only route to truth is reason. Reason leads to "oh, well, this could be the matrix and I can't know the difference", which lead you to make an assumption "this is real" which leads to an emotional appeal to yourself "I have faith that this is real". Therein lies some truth. It's a pity you can't see it.
     
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  5. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker,

    No, wisdom comes from knowledge.

    Knowledge is not wisdom, but wisdom depends on knowledge. Love is just one component of emotional knowledge.

    Wisdom is the ability to efficiently process knowledge and derive meaning.
     
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  7. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    wesmorris,

    Reason leads only to confusion. Reason may lead you to knowledge, but with reason you never reach wisdom. There is absolutly nothing of emotional in any Christian spiritual matters. It is completly different then emotions. Christians never follow their emotions as truth. Atheists can't contro, their emotions. It's the exactly oposite of what you say. You look to the lies of this world and say that they are the Truth. Atheists are iluded by this world. They are created like that since their childhood. Many people that are Christians were actually atheists once. The difference is that they stopped looking for the Truth in the wrong place. They realized that each person see the world in a different way and that the only way to the Truth is through their own hearts.
     
  8. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Cris,

    Knowledge and wisdom are nearly oposite things. Knowledge is attained by experience, wisdom is attained by the simple act of loving. If you are wise, will you kill? Will you steal? Will you do any of those sins? I don't think so. As it is said in the Bible, the whole Law is resumed in "love one another".

    Love is not emotional. Again, you are influenced by this world's idea of Love. This "love" that you talk about is worth almost nothing. This world created this "love" just to confuse people about the True Love.

    Wisdom don't depend on knowledge. Wisdom and knowledge are completly different. Knowledge comes from the mind. You have to think, you have to ponder, you have to evolve. Wisdom comes naturaly and easily through loving one another. There is a great secret in this Law, which if you follow you may see the light of the day and night will become history.

    Wisdom is naturaly easy understanding.

    Matthew 11:25

    "25 Then Jesus prayed this prayer: "O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding the truth from those who think themselves so wise and clever, and for revealing it to the childlike. ""
     
  9. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

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    That's a good way to keep followers of Jesus from questioning Christianity... I wonder what they're afraid you'll find? The truth?
     
  10. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    That you would say that and mean it is maybe the saddest thing I've ever heard.
    That is simply untrue. I mean, you are lying to yourself. In my opinion you owe it to yourself to stop it.
    You'll never understand. You are a carrier of the mind virus.
    Simply retarded.
    Of course it is. You say so. Gack. Stop it.
    HHAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh shit. You are a sheep. I do not. I found my own truth through deep thought and analysis. You read the bible a bunch of times. Nice work. Very original analysis. SHEEP.
    I'm an agnostic but I went to church as a child looking for answers. I finally realized that the people there had no answers to give besides well, bullshit. It's a bunch of crap and you buy into it. That makes me think you're stupid, but now I realize you only seem stupid because you have been victimized by a mind virus. I'm sad for you but scared of you because you would spread this virus to someone I care about given the opportunity. I'm scared of you because you are not self-aware enough to realize the depth with which this virus has pulled you in. You are inside a balloon.
    Really? What does that have to do with anything. Many people are infected with AIDs.
    You are SO fucking presumptuous to make such an assertion.
    And you're claiming that theism/christianity has ANYTHING to do with a subjective perspective. That's uh.. well. What are you talking about? You simply don't make any sense. I wonder why? Oh yeah... you said "Reason leads only to confusion." If that is you assertion you are doomed to ignorance and congnitave failure. In my opinion, however shallow it may be in this regard: You suck.
     
  11. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker,

    I shouldn't have called you a sheep. I think lemming is much more appropriate.
     
  12. MacZ Caroline Registered Senior Member

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    Wouldn't it be that the starting point of wisdom is the idea, the acceptance of the idea, that what there is to know is infinite and what we do know or understand is, relatively speaking, practically nothing. That we have no knowledge to speak of.

    A sort of reckless humility that says to life, "Come on, show me what you've got, show me what this is all about - show me what I'm all about" as opposed to the know-it-all arrogance of borrowed philosophies for shelter, safe paths, but preclude the possibility of acquiring wisdom, if wisdom is ultimately about discovering what we are.

    There’s us and then there’s life. Wisdom (to my mind) would be what’s generated in the middle when, if, we open ourselves up fully to life’s possibilities (good and bad), letting life interact with us to the fullest, knocking us about like a piece of clay we can see the changing shape of ourselves, our responses, and come to make more sense of subsequent happenings, and get closer to the truth or the dynamics of life.

    I don’t think, then, that knowledge has anything to do with wisdom. What is knowledge, anyway, beyond an accumulation of data? And I somehow can’t imagine truly wise people crediting themselves with “knowing” anything at all. It makes more sense to me that as soon as you think that you do, you’ve shut the door on wisdom.

    It would have to be the experiences that matter, and making ourselves available for them. And so obviously all our “wisdoms” would be different, which I suppose is why philosophy will last for as long as there still two people standing.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts and they seem to be a bit long for a “quickie” when all I really wanted to say was that I think people who are endlessly regurgitating borrowed thoughts and “realities” really haven’t got a clue. When it comes to wisdom, I’ll go with the one who says he’s clueless every time, because they’re more likely to have dipped their toes in the water, and maybe swum out deep, because they’re chockfull of questions, not answers, whereas the know-it-all never bothered. They “know” it’s cold already, though perhaps it’s not, and they “know” what it’s all about because they read that's how it is.

    And I’ll go with this too:

    It’s forcing square pegs into round holes.
     
  13. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    It seems to me that the definition of a word is inferred in typed or written communication. There is the definition of the word but most words mean multiple things. To determine what is being said in a conversation is not that difficult if one is tracking the context in which they are used over their history of knowledge about that person, the direct context of the converstation, any direct stipulations, etc.

    I've noticed that most people's posts make sense if you can kind of dynamically alter your definition of what that person is saying based on the context in which it seems that they are saying it. Like "wisdom is found through love" I would hold that this person's definition of wisdom is not the same as mine. It may even make sense in the schema of language that individual has created.

    It's interesting as I read amongst the posts that it seems that people in general, won't infer the implication of words based on the context in which they are used. Instead it is used as a point of argument and ends up a great source of frustration. I'm guilty too I suppose, for I think my defintions are right and certainly they are to me. It takes an objective truth (or a data source that becomes objective) such as a dictionary to put everyone on the same sheet of music, but alas, even when we turn to it for clarity, the very constructs of communication like "how can I apply a definition" can still get in the way. It's a sloppy business this "communicating with the other humans" nonsense.

    :bugeye:

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  14. moonman Registered Senior Member

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    Just some thoughts.

    wess-
    I believe that evey single person who has shared their thoughts here is neither right or wrong. Because the truth is a whole, and every person in the world fills a part of it. You can only define a word or a concept for your self which has been so elequently stated by some. We have been blessed with an indescribable individuality. YOU are the only one who can define the concept of the self.

    TS- You say the truth is within your heart. Yes this I can agree with. But then you move on to impose your Christian truth on the rest of us. If the truth is in our hearts, let us find it where it may be.
    You can say, 'here is what I think is truth, look at it and see what you think'
    But you should never say 'here is THE truth, and you should believe in it' as religion does.
    You may believe in Religion, nothing wrong with that, just make sure that the books truth is your truth, and that your truth came from within, and not from a page.


    'The illusion is that you do not know the truth, you are the truth so know yourself'
     
  15. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    notme2000,

    No. "They" are afraid that you will be confused by your own little mind...


    wesmorris,

    Sad is to see someone so mislead by his own mind...

    You are saying that you know the Bible better than I do...??:bugeye:

    It is you the worshiper of the mind.

    Do I really need to comment that?? That proves it...

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    Oh really...? And what conclusion do you get with your "deep thought and analysis"?
    I'm not basing all that I'm saying in the Bible... The Bible is just the proof of it...

    Aah...?? I'm sorry, but I'm not attacking you back. I won't let my emotions dominate me. I don't "buy into it". I don't believe anything, I know it. I know that that is where the Truth is. It took me years to get here. I didn't just go there and accepted that. I seek the Truth and I found where it is. If you can't see it, than I'm sorry. I'm actually pretty scared that you will lead people away from the Truth... Don't be mislead by your mind.

    They realized the Truth because they realized how pointless it is to try to find it through their minds. Don't you see that your analisis is YOUR analisis? Don't you see that everyone see things in a different way? Don't you see that the mind works through comparison and perception and therefore the "Truth" changes all the time? Why do you think many people say that there is no single "Truth", that we have many "truths"? Because they are seeing it through their minds. You mind is like a filter. The light go into it but what you get is just a little bit of light. It's like looking to the world with sunglasses.

    Read above.

    I'm saying that Christianity tells you not to use your mind as a filter to judge what you perceive. What you perceive is not what is true because it is YOUR own perception, YOUR own judgement. Everyone will see things in a different way. An atheist would simply say: "there are many truths". A Christian would say: "there is only one Truth, but many are the realities that people perceive." That's why the mind leads to confusion, because you perceive many realities.

    I make no sense because you are more worried of judging me and proving me wrong then understanding me.

    I said that because there are many realities but only one Truth. You must see things impartially, without judging what you perceive. Your mind is only limited to your own judgment and perception.

    IYou are letting your emotions control you again...
     
  16. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    From Webster:

    Wisdom

    1 a : accumulated philosophic or scientific learning : KNOWLEDGE b : ability to discern inner qualities and relationships : INSIGHT c : good sense : JUDGMENT d : generally accepted belief *challenges what has become accepted wisdom among many historians Robert Darnton*.

    2 : a wise attitude or course of action.

    3 : the teachings of the ancient wise men.

    Here we see that Wisdom comprises an accumulation of ‘learnt’ knowledge and the ability to see beyond the surface plus the ability to weigh, balance, and judge.

    Love.

    1 a (1) : strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties *maternal love for a child* (2) : attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers (3) : affection based on admiration, benevolence, or common interests *love for his old schoolmates* b : an assurance of love *give her my love*.

    2 : warm attachment, enthusiasm, or devotion *love of the sea*.

    3 a : the object of attachment, devotion, or admiration *baseball was his first love* b (1) : a beloved person : DARLING often used as a term of endearment (2) British used as an informal term of address.

    4 a : unselfish loyal and benevolent concern for the good of another: as (1) : the fatherly concern of God for humankind (2) : brotherly concern for others b : a person's adoration of God.

    5 : a god or personification of love.

    6 : an amorous episode : LOVE AFFAIR.

    7 : the sexual embrace : COPULATION.

    1 through 4 are all descriptions of emotion. 5 is merely an unexplained assertion. 6 and 7 we can ignore for this discussion.

    Conclusion.

    As I said wisdom is dependent on knowledge and the ability to use such knowledge effectively.

    Truthseeker’s definition appears to have been derived entirely from his own personal agenda and imagination.
     
  17. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    wesmorris,

    As I said in my post above, we perceive things with our minds and we use our own experiences to understand it. I'm sorry, but I already tried to use my mind to track the context and the history of the person and it is still not accurate. We need to try to understand it not through our minds. Since we perceive things and judge them with our own experiences we need to look at things without using those experiences and our own definitions.

    It is true. My definition is not the same as yours. I see wisdom as something that can actually be applied in life. Quantum Physics, for example, would be bullshit for me since this doesn't add to my life in any way. Love would be the ultimate, since it helps me to have harmonic relationship with those around me.

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    I'm guilty too. I try not to analise things with my own understanding too. It is not that easy. I've never found the Truth. I probably still have long ways to go. But what I've been trying to tell you is that you cannot judge me by my words, since my definitions are different then yours. This post clearly shows that you changed from the last one...

    Dictionary doesn't work. We all have different definitions. They are all based in our past experiences. For more about that, read the thread:"The Meaninglessness of Conversation and The Puzzle of Life"

    Happy New Year

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    Last edited: Jan 1, 2003
  18. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    moonman,

    Have you been reading my writtings or did you know that by yourself?

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    Yeah... I've been trying to pass this message through for a long time...

    Of course!!

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    But what I'm saying is that you should find it in your heart. That's all that I'm trying to say. You see, I cannot see through your eyes. You need to find it yourself. What I'm just saying is that many people try to look for it in their minds and finish influenced by their own perceptions, definitions and past experiences.

    I'm not trying to impose any Christian stuff. Sometimes I quote the Bible, but that is because there is great wisdom in that book. What the Bible talks about is exactly that: look for the Truth within you heart. If you understand that and do that, all things can potentially be understood. You just need to look it in the right way. You need to be very impartial with the Truth you will find. I haven't been impartial, so I've been having difficulty on seeing things clearly lately. But what I know for sure is: find Truth in your heart.

    I don't. But people look at me and say: "he is a Christian. Oh no... he will start doing this and doing that. I must not listen to him. All that he says is bullshit..." and so on. "You" (I'm talking about people in general) use your past experiences to judge me and this is what you perceive. You don't really see what I'm saying, you look into your own experience that you have with most Christians. That's why I've been saying that you cannot follow your mind, you cannot follow your own perception. I believe wesmorris has some wisdom. I believe that some of what he says is true (all in the last post though). But in the other post, when he let some of his emotion get too loud, he called me sheep, or whatever. Just don't use your own understanding and you may find the Truth... someday...

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    Yes, it came from within. And I'm also impresed that the same Truth I found within myself have been written centuries ago in the Bible.

    Happy New Year

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  19. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Cris,

    You completly ignored moonman and wesmorris posts...
    Read them, and read mine's...

     
  20. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker

    Quantum Physics, for example, would be bullshit for me since this doesn't add to my life in any way.

    I find that those who discredit and reject science and its accomplishments are too ignorant to understand the implications of where they would be today without science.

    If you truly feel that it is bullshit, then please disconnect your computer from the internet and destroy it immediately. That way, you'll be certain your life has not been tainted by science.
     
  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    (Q),

    I'm not discrediting science. I even enjoy study it, it is interesting. But since it doesn't add in my life, I don't concentrate in it. I prefer to draw my attention to things that I can use in my everyday life.
     
  22. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker

    But since it doesn't add in my life, I don't concentrate in it. I prefer to draw my attention to things that I can use in my everyday life.

    Ignorance is bliss.

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  23. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Oh really? Do you thnink I don't know Quantum Physics? I do know it. But why would I keep thinking of it? How does that do me any good? This is not ignorance, this is wisdom. What do you do with something that you don't need? Use it? Life is too short to lose time with things that are irrelevant to life itself.
     

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