Wisdom

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by wesmorris, Dec 28, 2002.

  1. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    truthseeker,

    No I didn't ignore them and I did read them before I posted.

    To effectively communicate with others especially where complex issues and ideas are involved it is essential that the same word definitions are shared by all. If this is not achieved then communication does not take place.

    While dictionary definitions at times are sometimes not as precise as one would like they do represent an authoritative first stage. But any perceived discrepancies should be explained rather than be simply ignored or assumed incorrect. The worst thing is to create your own definitions, as you do frequently, and then wonder why no one else shares your views.

    My post indicates that my perceptions of wisdom and love are strongly supported by a recognized authoritative dictionary whereas yours falls short. The others were offering compromises and adaptations. You have also chosen to ignore the dictionary, because, as you state, everyone has his or her own definitions. I hope you now see why you fail to communicate with others. You are not free to create your own definitions and assume you have a correct view or that anyone else will understand you.

    You also reference the “meaningless of conversation”. This again emphasizes your desire to create your own interpretations instead of accepting those devised and evaluated by others who have considered word meanings in far greater depth than yourself. It is arrogant to assume that your views are correct and everyone else is wrong.

    You also appeal to using the ‘heart’. This again reflects your highly emotional personality. An appeal to the ‘heart’ is nothing less than believing what you feel is right rather than what is actually right or the truth. The truth often doesn’t feel right, and the truth is often harsh and unpleasant. Deal with it and stop trying to create your own fantasy alternative realities.
     
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  3. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker

    Do you thnink I don't know Quantum Physics? I do know it.

    hehe - you've shown your able, somewhat badly I might add, to parrot others without understanding what it is your parroting. Aside from that, you know very little of reality.

    Good post Cris!
     
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  5. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Yeah, I'm in between myself. I get a little too emotional about this whole deal from time to time and get a little asslike with my posts. I do think that Cris and I are basically saying the same thing, it's just that Cris is doing it without being a dick. Thanks Cris.

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  7. notme2000 The Art Of Fact Registered Senior Member

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    It's very rare I see Cris make a post without everyone else giving him praise. With good reason.
     
  8. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Guys,

    I'm going to stop posting if you keep saying things like that. I'm just a student of life and a dwarf in the field of philosophy.
     
  9. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Jeez Cris, learn to take a freakin compliment. I realize it's just not right in a debate forum, but you are often elegant and succinct. It isn't an ass kissing session, it's recognition of clarity. Sheez bro.
     
  10. Zero Banned Banned

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    Someone as old as you are is never a 'dwarf' in philosophy...IMHO...
     
  11. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Ahh such wisdom. Thank you wes sensei.

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  12. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Cris,

    That's impossible since we all have different definitions based on our perceptions and past experiences. That's why I say it is pointless to discuss rationally...

    Cris, YOU yourself have your own definitions. You think that your definitions are exactly like the dictionary's, but it's not. If I say "family" for example, if you had/have a good family, then you will feel happy and see it as something good. If you had/have a bad family, then you can feel sadness, fear, hurt, hate, and you won't have a very good perception of it.

    Your experiece with love, wisdom and knowledge unconsciently defines it inside your mind. That's how your mind works. It uses past experiences, perceptions and definitions to understand the world. It is like the way we see space and time. Space and time are not definite. There is no "1km", there is no "1 hour", this is just our own sytem of measure. Space and time cannot be measured, but as our mind needs something basic to rely and compare things, then we need those systems of measure. But nature itself has no system of measure, no fixed definition, nature is pretty flexible.

    Again, the mind needs a basic to compare. We use dictionary. It is NOT accurate. It is impossible not to have your own definitions. If you think yourself (or your words) better then others simply because they are written in a dictionary then you are no better then this world. And this world is a really mess nowdays...

    It is arrogant to assume that I'm arrogant when I'm clearly stating that I'm no better then anyone else and you are saying the exact opposite about yourself.

    Heart as nothing to do with emotions. Again, you seem to have no idea of what I'm talking about. It is not just feeling, it is knowing. It is natural knowledge. An awesome example of it is mother with kids. The little baby starts to cry and the mother knows exactly what the baby needs. That's a good example of how to use your heart. It is not directly connected to emotions though.
     
  13. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Experience has absolutly no connection with wisdom.
     
  14. (Q) Encephaloid Martini Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker

    An awesome example of it is mother with kids. The little baby starts to cry and the mother knows exactly what the baby needs.

    Do you actually ever read what you post ? I mean, its pretty obvious you make this stuff up as you go along, but do you ever stop for a moment and place yourself in a third party position and objectively read your own posts ?

    You'll say anything, no matter how ridiculous.

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  15. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    You are correct that technically everyone has individual perspectives on words. No two people share the same mind, thusly no one has the same exact definition of any word.

    Your HUMONGOUS ERROR is to assume that since that is true, it makes attempts at rational discussion completely devoid of value. That is simply not true, if it were, why are you here? I realize you likely have an infinite number of jesus answers to tell me why you're here but: This is a philosophy/science place where people explore ideas. You are here to explore them irrationally but you are still here to explore apparently? The very act of attempting to communicate YOUR ideas regarding anything I've read that you've typed is indeed an attempt at rationalization of your own belief system. So much so that you insist it superior to all others (implicitely). So then, how do you justify your own attempts at debate? You are wasting your time having conversations you deem pointless. Why do you bother? Isn't it right for you to just sit and pray or something?
     
  16. Zero Banned Banned

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    There is a connection, but a somewhat weak one. IT is there nonetheless. Lots of experience will help you see some of the loopholes and the exceptions to the rules of life. That would count as a part of wisdom.
     
  17. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    (Q),

    All the time.


    wesmorris,

    The best solution would certainly be to pray. However, I'm not very patient... that's the hardest thing I have to deal with. It is somewhat pointless to debate, however I try to help people by making them conscient of how limited our minds are to ourselves. When people realize those limits of our minds they start to be more careful and they hopefully judge less the world with their minds. It is quite pointless since all that you perceive you judge using your own standarts. You gain depth when you try to transcend your mind. I care about people and I do my best to show this to them.


    Zero,

    Maybe. It is quite hard to agree since experiences are past experiences and past experiences most of the time distort what you see.
     
  18. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    T,

    We may be disagreeing only in matters of degree here but I am not so sure. The primary method of communication between people is via language. A language involves words and a set of rules on how to string the words together to form ideas. For language to be an effective form of communication, which it is in most cases, both parties must share the same knowledge concerning both the rules and the meanings of individual words.

    If we each had different meanings for the same words then the language would be useless and effective communication would never take place. And since language has proved itself to be extremely effective in communication then, ergo, your claim that we all have different definitions for the same words is blatantly false.

    What I think, and hope, you really mean is that many of us, while sharing a basic understanding of the same words place perhaps a difference emphasis or bias on certain words that can change their meanings in subtle and sometimes not so subtle ways. The real value of debates such as this, especially where issues of concepts are involved, is that we can share and discuss the variations in meanings of words and hopefully reach a consensus on how to accurately interpret the words and their implications.

    Would you agree?

    My objection to your particular approach is that you have a tendency to use radically different and very personal interpretations of words and concepts that are too different to the usually accepted basic understandings, and hence why we disagree so much.

    The issue you are raising here is a question of subjectivity, objectivity, and precision. I work in a research environment where objectivity and precision are paramount, and that I hope is my typical approach in these types of discussion as well. I suggest that the problem here is that you always use your own personal subjective interpretation of certain words and concepts and this is supported by your claimed distaste earlier of using a dictionary.

    And tempered with decades of real world experience and the value of working in the world of science and technology where objectivity and precision have taught me how to discover truth and accuracy in all things I attempt.

    It is not an issue of better it is a matter of precision, accuracy and truth. The dictionary is a first stage and then we can explore possible differences based on real world observations.

    As for this world being a mess then that is again a purely subjective opinion based on a limited perspective. Compared to the past when diseases were an overwhelming concern and where maximum life expectancy was only in the 30s, and wars were a common experience for most then the world today is a fabulous paradise.

    No, you only think you are no different to everyone else because you are falsely assuming everyone makes judgments based on subjectivity like yourself.

    From Webster: Heart –

    4 : the emotional or moral as distinguished from the intellectual nature.
    5 : one's innermost character, feelings, or inclinations.

    You are incorrect again. And it has been typical for millennia and in nearly all literature than when someone talks about using one’s heart, outside of a medical context, then they are specifically speaking about emotions and feelings. If you meant something else then select a word that is more precise and appropriate.

    Then use words that are more appropriate that we both share. I suggest you start by using a dictionary when you compose your essays.

    The dictionary and most world literature disagrees with you. Knowing is a matter of the mind not the heart.

    You’ve done it again; you’ve created a term of your own and are hoping that we will understand what you mean. Search the web; the term ‘natural knowledge’ has been used by many and in different contexts to mean a wide variety of issues.

    This is largely an example of an evolutionary inherited trait that does in fact invoke an emotional response of compassion and love in which case you are correct as it is a matter of the heart as well.
     
  19. wesmorris Nerd Overlord - we(s):1 of N Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker,

    I suggest you've sabotaged your mind for religion. To me, you've completely betrayed yourself for your mind is your one true gift.

    If you fail to standardize the definitions of words in your mind, your are most correct that your attempts at reason will only lead to confusion.
     
  20. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    truthseeker,

    I am quite sure that most people who have lived in the real world know that the greatest wisdom comes from direct experience. I don’t believe anyone would dispute this.

    Did you really intend to state what you did, or did you have something else in mind?
     
  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Cris,

    Ok, but language is much more flexible then that. Besides, it is pretty limited. It limits itself because that's how the mind works. The mind cannot work with this universe without limiting it. The distance we try to limit and compare it in km, m, cm... The time we try to limit in years, hours, minutes... Those are just systems of measure to make communication and understanding possible, but they must not be mistaken by the reality of this universe.

    The deviation in the meanings is enough to create big misunderstandings and still be able to communicate something. What actually happens is that we think that we passed the message, but the message received was actually another. It is exactly like that game where someone says a sentence and you have to whisper into someone else's ear and then that person has to pass it to the next person until it gets to the first again, and it does, the message is completly different.

    What I'm saying is that what defines the meaning of a word is our own experience with the basic definition of the word. It is the basic definition of the word combined with our experiences and perceptions. We may try to measure the discrepancy, so that your brain can processe it and limit it, so that you may understand it. Each word may be defined by:
    <--------------------------------+---------------------->
    personal meaning.....basic meaning...............personal meaning

    Each word can be put into this spectrum and it will never be in the basic meaning. Since you are a living person, your definition will change over time and will always be flexible enough to even change from coversation to conversation, as you use it.

    Your experiences and perceptions, limited by your brain, make all definitions for you very flexible. Unfortunatly, it happens unconsciently for everyone, until is brough to conscience by one's increase in self-awareness or the passing of the message by someone that is strong enough to make it clear, even into words. Since I found that out, I try to communicate it in the most flexible way possible. I try to adapt it from person to person so that it can be basically understood. If someone has even a hint of this Truth (the flexibility of language) then, this person may discover it for him/herself.

    You are no different then me. You also do that, but it appears that you are not conscious of it.

    I hope after reading the above you understand that you do the same...

    Experience draws you to illusion, not Truth. With your experience, you will see all things in the light of your own experience. For example, if a Christian start talking with you, you wll probably say that his person is irrational, or whatever primary experience you had with Christians. However, you are talking with a Christian right now, and the last thing I am is irrational.:bugeye:

    Your experience limits your understanding. It sets up something that is not necessarily true, it limits yourself. If a Jew is bad, it doesn't mean that all Jews are bad. If your family is loving, it doesn't mean all families are loving. If a nazy is gentle, it doesn't mean all nazies are gentle!:bugeye: One experience with a "word" don't define it.

    You will probably defend yourself now, since I'm saying that you spent decades in something that doesn't give you any Truth... But this is quite subconscient in every one. Everyone thinks that they are right, everyone thinks that their definitions are true; be it consciently or subconsciently.

    You cannot know someone's mind, can you? How will you explore the possible differences, then?

    Cris, I respectfully say to you: wake up. You live in the country that hold more than a third of the world's riches. Everyone else is different. There are billions of people that live in extremely different conditions. There are wars everywhere in Africa. There are still a lot of diseases killing billions there. Even at the US there is AIDS and cancer, not mentioning that they are caused by your own sins (be it lust, smoke, drink (which adds car accidents), etc). There is still also a lot of poverty in this world. The reality is different, basically, only in your own country.

    Cris, I've just said I'm no different then anyone else...
    ...who are you trying to trick?

    I use heart cause the Bible has a much more ancient and interesting conception of what "heart" actually means. It is not emotional, it is spiritual. The hard thing with spiritual matters is that they are very similar to emotional matters, but they are not directly connected.

    No matter which words we use we will never get the same idea out of it. Of course, there are words that are better than others, but I don't know what those are, since I don't know what you have in your mind, your experiences and your perceptions.

    You do realize that this concept exist since the dawn of humanity and that it is far less accurate that can actually get, do you? The reason why you are so attached to that is that everything that you understand is based on that statemet: "Knowing is a matter of the mind not the heart.". To know with your heart, is to know naturaly, and this knowledge is far more accurate and simple then the one we currently use. Maybe it is time for a radical change...

    I meant something that you simply know it is true, without thinking about it. For example, when you were a kid, you would pee in your pants, wouldn't you?

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    Why? because you didn't know how to control it.

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    But then, you learned how to do it, so now it is natural for you not to pee in your pants.

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    Not so good example, since it is physical, but that's the best I have now...

    Agreed.
     
  22. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    wesmorris,

    Then how come I can use reason to discuss this subject?

    You are no different then me, be subconsciously or consciously.


    Cris,

    I dispute this. Experience molds what you perceive. That's what I'm trying to say here. I still don't know why you don't understand that...
     
  23. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Truthseeker,

    Wisdom from Experience.

    How could a swimming instructor effectively teach others to swim if he could not swim himself?

    What is the likely effectiveness of a sex counselor who is a virgin?

    Would you trust a parachute instructor who has never jumped out of an aircraft?

    Understanding the theory behind something provides some degree of wisdom over others who have not learnt the theory. Putting the theory into practice provides another level of wisdom that far exceeds the plain dry theory.

    There are numerous things in life that simply cannot be fully appreciated until they are tried. Simply talking about them can never do them justice. Direct experience of most things results in a fundamental and different appreciation of reality that cannot be understood or properly learnt through any other mechanism.

    For much of this you will be unable to understand until you have started to experience life for yourself. When this happens to you then it will be an epiphany.

    Try explaining to a 5 year old the pleasure of masturbation. It is pointless until they are capable and can do it for themselves.

    I very strongly suspect you cannot understand what I mean about the wisdom from experience because you have yet to discover this fundamental truth of reality for yourself. I also strongly recommend that you should get out more and experience life directly rather than theorize about it.

    Best regards
    Cris
     

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