With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by §outh§tar, Sep 5, 2004.

  1. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Now that I shan't be going to heaven, it is a bit hard to be optimistic..

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    Note, by referring to Hiter, I am not saying be "evil".

    I am only saying that is it not possible to be a little more "loose" in life since it is the only life you have and any reservations you have will only be your loss since once you die that is it?

    I am not saying go and kill millions or anything like that. Participating in a threesome and going to college parties is more of what I had in mind..

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    perhaps the Hitler analogy was a little too extreme. All I mean to say is not living life according to what society deems acceptable since it is the only life you have and when you die, you wouldn't care anyway.

    I can see you know very little about the mother who raised me up with Christian fundamental written all over my forehead...

    Maybe one day. I suspect they won't even listen to my reasoning.

    There is this one (Christian) friend I have been talking to and sharing my doubts with. I am told by this person that it is simply "God's mind is so high above us that we can't understand everything about Him". To which I of course reply, if that is the case then how can we know the Bible is trustworthy since it is penned by (allegedly God-inspired) men? And if that is the case then we have no reason to think any of our interpretations are at all valid.

    Not to mention when the Bible says quite clearly that the earth is flat, we really shouldn't be relying on it to tell us the record of the human genesis.
     
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  3. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    See the above post to Athelwulf. I think many misinterpreted my analogy to Hitler. What I tried to say is that Hitler didn't care what society deemed acceptable and he didn't live his life out the way people wanted him to be. So for example, if I one day decided to watch 24 hours straight of porn

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    that would be against society's "ethics" and yet it ultimately is my decision not theirs and I will die a death without guilt since I won't be remembering any of that. So now you don't have to worry about me doing something "extremely evil", only that I was wondering if you guys still live more or less according to societal norms and morals and why.

    And just because no one can prove heaven or hell doesn't mean there isn't the chance (no matter how remote) that they do exist and are a very real place for humans. It is always a scary thought to think maybe, just maybe, I have made a terrible error and I will end up in hell for all eternity for not having faith.
     
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  5. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Xev,

    What I was really going for when I asked what meaning there is to life, I was referring more so to the ultimate purpose. It seems futility to aspire to be rich or famous or well clothed or intelligent, if you are ultimately going to end up rotting with someone who got it much harder in life. I know there are certain things we like to accomplish/acquire during our lives but what is the validity of this if they are only valid as long as we live? If there is no hope of an afterlife in heaven, then all we have is here on earth and therefore we really needn't have any goals. A man who eats good food all his days and a baby that starves to death in it's first three days will all return to dust where their lives will have no meaning to them.


    Also if our instincts cause us to behave rather antisocially, is it good to repress them in order to conform to the expectations of society? Must we adhere to the morals of others to find fulfillment in our own lives or should we be our own men and dictate how we live? Futile questions, I know, but the very idea that I could die an hour from now and realize that there really is a hell waiting for me is as equally distressing as dying and that being the end of my existence for ever, regardless of whether I was good or bad in my life.
     
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  7. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    No need to remind me..

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    Wow, I didn't know you were Baptist as well. Yes, it is a hard decision for me but it's not like I can make my doubt go away at will. Since Christianity does not leave room for doubt, then whether or not I admit my doubt is of no significance since my unbelief has already disqualified me. It is actually a most distressing thing since no one can actually control when they doubt and when they don't. You would have to be extremely ignorant and sheltered from all other points of view not to doubt and to never seriously doubt your faith is simply evidence that you don't believe your faith holds enough water to stand the test of criticism.

    Yes, I know my less than conventional tactics against anyone who questioned Christianity certainly garned quite an admiration for me. Anyone who hears that I am no longer what they want me to be will treat me differently, an apparent injustice but I at times feel more sorry for them than I do for myself.



    And no this isn't any joke, have you ever heard of a Christian joking around with his salvation? The very thought is contradictory to unerring belief..
     
  8. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    4,832
    Wow you really do know the way Christians work. They will say that the Devil is simply tempting me and that I have to trust in God more than ever just like Job did. Unfortunately it appears they are the ones who have been decieved but to them, I might as well be telling them that I just gave birth to a crab.

    I understood that faith rests on reason and yet my faith simply could not bear the weight of reason and my world came tumbling down. Thank you for your kind words towards me, even though we were once at loggerheads

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    It seems like everything is happening so fast and yet there is no God or Bible to latch on to..
     
  9. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Yes, it would be nice to look forward to an eternal heaven but I fear that the Christians I will seek counsel from are so subjective and so confident that they are right as opposed to everyone else (as I once was) that they will force interpretations to harmonize otherwise disagreeing texts. Kind of hard to be optimistic, when there is nothing to look forward to..

    Did I mention I've taken quite a liking to contemporary Christian music..

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    well I had better start living my life to it's fullest potential but I shan't give up hope (just yet). Also one question, why haven't you given up hope all this time? If the Bible can certainly not be inerrant as they claim, then how can you believe in any part of it at all?

    I have talked to a few Christians who agree that the Bible does actually have mistakes in it but say that the point is it's moral message centered on Christ is still valid. But I ask, if Christ was supportive of erroneous religious texts, then how can we expect Him to be divine (notice how I have not dropped the habit of capitalizing "him"

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    )
     
  10. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Q: Does it not bother you that you just might be wrong concerning God...
    A: Nope. Being 'wrong' isn't even a consideration when dealing with
    fairytales.

    Q: ...and that you might actually end up in hell for eternity?
    A: Nope. I don't fear man-made fairytale concepts.
     
  11. what768 Guest

    Don't you think Christ (who knows everything) would know that men would write things that would be false.

    "After my departure there will arise the ignorant and the crafty, and many things will they ascribe unto Me that I never spake, and many things which I did speak will they withhold, but the day will come when the clouds shall be rolled away, and the Sun of Righteousness shall shine forth with healing in his wings."

    The question may then rise, why did he support erroneous texts. Propably just because this was the best way for man.

    "There are many things I have to say to you, but you cannot bear yet."
     
  12. MacM Registered Senior Member

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    10,104
    No. Not at all. I am convienced that should there by some unbelievable circumstance actually be some form of a God Creator his (her) (it) demeanor could not include such concpets as Hell and eternal damnation simply because we used the intelligence that he supposedly gave us to study his creation without giving him praise. I think he would be proud of any cration that can think and come to understand his creation. Hell simply is not within the realm of any God that might exist in such a case.

    It would bother me much more to believe in a God that would create the entire 27 Billion Light Year diameter universe, with billins of gallaxies and billions of stars per gallaxy and create mere man on punny earth as his sole purpose and for that to simply be praise him or suffer eternal damnation.

    It is simply beyond belief that that could be the case. And frankly if it were I would not praise such a God.
     
  13. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    That is truly a sad excuse, if you will excuse me to say so. If God approves of lies, then He obviously CAN NOT be a God of Truth. It is a direct contradiction of His nature to even tolerate untruths and therefore what you are saying lacks any validity whatsoever. That would be like leaving things in the Bible to purposely mislead people "because this was the best way for man."
     
  14. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    First, what contradiction do you speak of, and have you read the very best apologetic material on the subject(ie., those with phd's in history or theology)? There are some extremely bright Christians out there who should be able to answer most of the common objections.

    Sometimes, however, what appears to be a contradiction is a form of a strength. True, Judas death is portrayed in two different ways but only because the speech given by Peter was recorded in Peter's spoken words, before all the news of Judas death came to Peter. Those who know God inspired the writings without bearing a heavy down on the human inspiration are pleasently suprised when historical evidence uncovers what was previously thought to be historically wrong.

    Second, maybe your beliefs about the Bible, or even the doctrines derived from the Bible, are wrong, have been taught to you wrong? I don't believe in "Once Saved Always Saved." There is plenty of evidence to state the contrary.

    Third, it's common to go through dark periods of the soul, even long periods of dryness. For example, the soul typically goes through two dark periods on the path, outlined by St. John of the cross. The first is the rejection of the material world, but after the rejection of the material world, the soul struggles as the soul finds itself unworthy in the presence of God.

    I struggle with both at once, notwithstanding. Even upon hearing the voice of God and the Holy Spirit, which command us to trust, there is difference between belief based upon evidence and the desire to belief. But without the desire, a belief based upon evidence is worthless, for the soul will seek disbelief, rejecting the evidence given to it. Having the desire of belief only some might say is not good; but God reveals and shows himself eventually to those who have desire, and those who seek Him earnestly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2004
  15. what768 Guest

    §outh§tar, a good man has nothing to worry about, neither here on earth or after death. He knows it if he deserves Hell. Even though he says he does not believe, he is still faithful to God, because he believes in His teachings about love. There are many who call themselves atheists and yet they are more faithful to God than those who say they believe. God knows who is faithful, and a good man knows that also because God is within him.

    I don't believe in God like you did. So I don't know if i should argument against what you wrote. But some people maybe need to be "mislead", so that they would realize the "truth". Truth is not always so simple. It is not always right to speak the "truth" for example. For when a young boy is about to die it is not "truth" to say the truth to this boy. It is better to say something nice, because man does not know any other truth than love. So, also "misleading" someone could be done in the sign of love.

    Truth is to do the right thing at the right time and place. There are no evil "things", it only depend on how they're used.
     
  16. MacM Registered Senior Member

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    10,104
    I would hope not for I do believe when our time gets near we will cherish the good things achieved and the proliferation of ourselfs via our offspring. To come to the end with no such good deeds and ongoing life forms spawn by us would be a depressing thought.

    I only wish I could stick around a few millenium to see the wonders awaiting our great,great, great, great ,great grand children.
     
  17. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    4,832

    what768, I know you mean well but do try not to avoid my comments..

    Telling a lie to a boy about to die is much different from God telling a lie about the Bible, I think you would agree. First of all, the latter pertains to one's eternal salvation and therefore "misleading" people will mostly get them to hell.

    Besides, if Jesus approved of the Old Testament knowing full well that it was false and that even His disciples would draw from it's content afterwards, then He would have known that whatever they were going to quote is false in the first place. Consequently, since prophecies in the Old Testament cannot then pertain to Jesus since they are false, Jesus cannot be the Christ.

    Hebrews 6:18
    God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

    So either that means that Jesus cannot be God since He lied about the veracity of the OT or that God actually does lie. It can only be one, which is it?
     
  18. Medicine*Woman Jesus: Mythstory--Not History! Valued Senior Member

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    §outh§tar: Wow you really do know the way Christians work. They will say that the Devil is simply tempting me and that I have to trust in God more than ever just like Job did. Unfortunately it appears they are the ones who have been decieved but to them, I might as well be telling them that I just gave birth to a crab.
    *************
    M*W: You are healing, SouthStar. It will take some time. Just be aware that during your grieving process, you will still have thoughts about guilt. You will resolve this, too, in time. Just take it a day at a time. To help you along, I think you deserve to pat yourself on the back, and say 'thank you' to yourself for having the will to escape. Thank yourself every day that you are free. You may be experiencing the loss of your Christian friends, and they, of course, won't help you through the grief process. They will do everything they can to rope you back into the fold. I know you are strong, because I know your faith was strong. You didn't lose your faith, your faith lost YOU! SouthStar, this IS salvation!
    *************
    SouthStar: I understood that faith rests on reason and yet my faith simply could not bear the weight of reason and my world came tumbling down. Thank you for your kind words towards me, even though we were once at loggerheads

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    It seems like everything is happening so fast and yet there is no God or Bible to latch on to..
    *************
    M*W: Your world is starting to re-form now. There are other things you can latch onto. You have a lot of support from sciforums members. Many of us have been in your shoes, and we've seen the light! You will begin to learn so much more about life and religion and it will seem like a whole new world has been opened up for you! Look within to find answers you need. Spend time alone meditating (praying) and the answers will come. The universe has a strange way of answering your questions synchronistically! The power that you had in God and the Bible is now within you. Trust in yourself.
     
  19. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    4,832
    The Bible also rejects the claim of the soul "struggling" because it finds itself "unworthy" of God. The Bible numerously claims that the blood of Jesus has made Christians perfect in God's sight and therefore there is no cause to struggle unless the blood isn't really doing it's job.

    I am quite aware that the Bible claims that wisdom and understanding of the Scripture is by the Spirit and not of human wisdom. If one needs a pHD in theology in order to understand contradictions in the Bible, then Christianity must be a scholar's sport and is of no business to the world. But perhaps you can help me with a few here: http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/tomb.html


    EDIT:
    In other words you are telling me that I don't need rationality to believe. Having the desire to belief has helped me none as I have already said. I prayed truly and earnestly that my dear God would shew me some light to invigorate me and quell my doubts and yet here I am, God has abandoned me in my trying times and I am alone. So much for Scripture that says He will stick "closer than a friend".

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    To atheists/agnostics
    okinrus, the master of apologetics, says that God reveals himself to those who seek him earnestly. How long now have you been waiting for a sign which has never come? You might think your answer is far too long, but just put that in perspective of Christianity waiting over two thousand years and during that waiting period, bickering and burning each other.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2004
  20. MacM Registered Senior Member

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    10,104
    SouthStar,

    There is an old saying "You should not reward Johnny for not kicking grandma in the shins."

    What it means is one should be content to be good for the sake and pleasure of being good. One should not expect a reward for doing right.

    Doing right because it is your nature gives much more pride and pleasure.
     
  21. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    2,669
    No, the Bible doesn't.

    No, the Bible doesn't.

    It was never your job to interpret Scripture in the first place. Sure, you can interpret specific passages to your own life, but to claim any interpretation is correct beyond doubt requires a stamp of authority, one which neither I nor you have in general. Sure, I'll can give many possible intepretations, which should to the extent of my abilities correspond to the Church's, but it is not I but the Church who as the authority in such matters.

    When I am able to respond to that site, in full, I'll post a new thread, ok? The only real rebuttel I've done before of that site is their interpretation of Pascal's gamble.
     
  22. WANDERER Banned Banned

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    704
    Meaning?

    XEV
    I agree with you.
    To place a meaning or purpose to life is to negate free-will and to make the idea of self a big joke.
    To search for purpose and meaning in life, other than in the self, is to search for external validation and guidance.
    In life, luckily, there is only function, and meaning is dependant on personal motives and perspectives. If your motive is to fit in or to belong and your perspective is that of a frightened mind looking for concretes and absolutes then you will always ask the question: “What is the meaning of life?”
    To which question only you could and should answer.

    Most of the philosophical problems facing humanity today have been caused because we ask the wrong questions in the wrong ways. To place meaning outside human consciousness and to seek it outwardly, is like looking for your self in other peoples eyes.
    The human mind is responsible for creating meaning, for meaning is simply an interpretation.
    What is the interpreter in this case? The human conscious mind.


    I personally would be greatly disheartened if the question of meaning could be answered sufficiently.

    A good definition of ‘morality’ is the sacrifice of personal interests to the interests of the whole.
    Being that human beings are social animals, some form of morality will always exist.
    The question now is whose and towards what end?

    The reason why there are so many similarities between moral systems is because all systems all social groups have many common interests: discipline, conformity, harmony, control.
    Where there is a divergence in moral law is when different motives and goals come into play.

    It focuses it for its own purposes and meanings.

    Ethics, in my view, is a subject that should not be taught in school under the philosophy discipline.
    If anything, it belongs under religion or spirituality.
    Just by posing the question of what is ‘good’ or what is ‘just’ or what is ‘moral you are inadvertently placing the common interests above your own

    §outh§tar
    If you believe suffering for what you are and paying the price for being honest and true to yourself is not worth eternal hell, then you have no place being free.
    If I’m supposed to suffer for living up to the very things I was created to be by the very creator who created me, supposedly, then when the time comes I’ll spit in His/Her/Its face and endure the price of being human.
    Besides, I suspect that nothing can be worse than existence.
     
  23. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    @ okinrus

    The Church has no such authority over the believer and therefore the Church cannot mandate what is orthodox and what is heretic to the faith. You are speaking like a Catholic instead of an objective inquirer. The Bible makes no such claim to verify your verneration of Church to such responsibility.


    And as for saying the Bible does not reject the concept of a "struggling soul which finds itself unworthy":

    2 Corinthians 4
    16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

    What then is the point of finding oneself to be unworthy if the spirit is in constant renewal? It simply makes no sense.

    Titus 3
    4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

    Again salvation through grace equates to "rebirth" and therefore your idea of "struggling" would be in disobedience to the assured promise, which would then be in vain.

    Also what do you make of the fact that the Bible actually supports a flat earth theory?
     

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