# With A Heavy Heart, I Say This to Atheists and Christians

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by §outh§tar, Sep 5, 2004.

1. ### Medicine*WomanJesus: Mythstory--Not History!Valued Senior Member

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8,346
David F.: When was Arkenaten born?
*************
M*W: I should have checked on this and posted it with my previous post. Here's some other info I have on Moses:

Moses and Akhenaten had the same parents. During the last year of his pharaonic reign, Moses had been in power for 17 years. It was the 17th year of his reign that he was deposed by his brother/cousin Aaron who was only in power for 3 years. Following Aaron, Moses' son, King Tut became pharaoh and was in power for 9 years. Moses/Akenhaten/Amenhotep IV had a co-regency rule with his father, Amenhotep III. It was Moses' fervent worship of the Sun=God Aten that caused him to flee from Egypt. The Egyptians no longer wanted to believe in the Sun-God, but all their various and sundry gods which included the solar system, planets, moons, etc.

The Exodus occurred toward the end of the 18th dynasty. The scholars I am reading say Moses was born in Zarw where both Moses And Akenaten were born. So, I may have spoken too soon about Moses being born in Heliopolis. Due to the mores of the day, it's possible that Miriam, Mosoes' sister was also his mother. When Moses set out to flee Egypt, he was only 18 years old. The date of his birth can be determined by the date of the Exodus and Moses' age at that time. Moses fled to Midian on Sinai (within Egypt) as he never made it to the Promised Land across the sea from Egypt. His people were trying to assassinate him for his belief in the Sun-God.

Nefertiti was Moses' first wife who died prior to the Exodus. Moses then spent some time. The priest of Midian had seven daughters. Moses spent some time in the priest's tent, and the priest offered Moses one of his daughters called Zipporah and she bore Moses a son who was named Gershon.

A new pharaoh had come to the throne and brought misery to the Habiru tribe who believed in the Sun-God as did Moses. The 'Lord' that appeared to Moses in the burning bush on the mountaintop was probably set afire because of the dryness of the bush and was ignited by the heat of the sun who Moses thought was God. I suppose in Moses' mind, he saw that burning bush as an act of his God, the Sun, but how can that be proven literally or was Moses feeling the affects of the heat as well?

Now, there's something peculiar to what the Lord was supposed to have told Moses (to take the Israelites out of Egypt). What's strange about this is that the sun worshippers were called Habiru, and it is these people Moses wanted to free from the 'bondage' of forced belief in many everyday gods in Egypt. When Moses was on the mountaintop, he believed the sun to be talking to him, because this was his belief! The sun spoke to Moses in the Egyptian language -- not Hebrew. Besides, there were NO Israelites at this time, just a small tribe of Habiru!

Moses must have written the Pentateuch on his sojourn in the desert, after all it allegedly took at least two generations of people to make it to the Promised Land. Moses never made it. The question is, how did the Pentateuch become the Hebrew Torah unless Moses' writings were translated from Egyptian to Hebrew in the Promised Land?

I'd like to include more, but I have some business I need to take care of this afternoon. I look forward to your reply.

3. ### what768Guest

"M*W: The 'Lord' that appeared to Moses in the burning bush on the mountaintop was probably set afire because of the dryness of the bush and was ignited by the heat of the sun who Moses thought was God."

lol... Why didn't the bush burn up? ("Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.") "At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God." I don't believe in your THEORY about the sun god, but you would propably say that he was afraid to look at the bright sun. The Bible also says that whoever sees the face of God, cannot live. I know what it means, but it doesn't mean that the sun would kill them if they looked at it

This is a funny chapter in Bible... When God was talking to moses he propably was just hearing the voice of his own mind. We may call it jesus, krishna, horus, but it's always just the same SELF that talks. (http://www.thebricktestament.com/)

5. ### c20H25N3oShiny Heart of a Shiny ChildRegistered Senior Member

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2,017
I was once shown a tiny tiny part of God's power whilst in deep prayer. It made me tremble and shake. He felt sorry for me. I begged Him to have mercy on my soul. I automatically praised His greatness though I was still terribly afraid and He blessed me and gave me mercy. He said "My Grace is sufficient for thee". I thanked Him over and over as if in a babble and He smiled at me. I could not help but smile back because I knew He loved me so greatly. All of His power was for me. It was never against me and in Him I was a living being with purpose.
God's power is infinite but He has perfect self-control in it (Thank God!). I know I will be called mad for the things I say but they are true as I am alive. Jesus' death and ressurection is the key to your salvation. His offering makes this possible so terrible is God's great wrath. Without Jesus' suffering as a lamb there would be no balance. None! We would otherwise always know God's wrath forever << this is the burning lake that your being would endure forever and I tell you this, when Jesus said "Outside with the weeping and gnashing of teeth" I think He was putting it mildly for your benefit.
But Jesus HAS done it. He is the Lord through which all things were made for without Him there would be no life. None. He holds the keys to Heaven and Hell. In Him you have life.
When I accepted Jesus into my life I became a new creation. It's not my fault if you don't believe me. I'm just a person and I don't have to speak at all. To those unbelievers I say "Your unbelief hurts me inside personally". But this I can bear, I just wish it were different which is why I say "Oh how I wish you all had a faith that as my own" because then I 'see' the Kingdom of Heaven.

peace

c20

7. ### mustafhakofiI sa'id soRegistered Senior Member

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c20: what has your statement, got to do with M*W, David f and What768 discussion on Moses, and the sun god.
do you set out to confuse, or do you like to be the centre of attention all the time,
oh and please stop preaching, we can all go to church, if we want to be preached to.

8. ### TruthSeekerFancy Virtual Reality MonkeyValued Senior Member

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15,162
He never feels sorry for people.

God has no mercy. He has compassion (actually even more than that). It is a much greater form of love.

Is there any fear in love?

I doubt He likes that. Humbleness is better than pride, but self-pitty is much worse than everything else.

Doesn't mean His grace is not sufficient or valid. It only means that He gives it to you and should simply accept it as any other present.

God has no wrath.

His suffering has nothing to do with it. It is God's love that saves people, not Jesus' suffering. Remeber? 1 Peter 4:8?

1 Peter 4:8
"8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. "

Don't you see that it was God's love in Jesus that is saving you, and not the sacrifice and suffering by themselves?

There's no burning lake. There's only complete non-existance.
Well... at least that's what I've found so far.

You are describing God.

You become a new creation every day of your life.

You would only see the Kingdom if everyone would act in love.

9. ### SnakeLordsnakeystew.comValued Senior Member

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5,758
Eheheheheheheheheheh, ahahahahahahahaah

No.

10. ### TruthSeekerFancy Virtual Reality MonkeyValued Senior Member

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15,162
Ok then. Why do you think he has wrath.

11. ### David F.Registered Senior Member

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459
I understand the liknesses and I think your story is mostly true. It's just that this Moses (Moshe) is not the same as the one in the bible (in the bible Moses' first wife was Ethiopian, not Egyptian).

But you didn't answer my question. The biblical Moses was born around 1600BC, when was Akhenaten/Moses born?

The answer is Akhenaten was born around 1369BC or later. These two were separated by two to three centuries. The bible says Yehovah made the Egyptians look up to the biblical Moses as if he were a god - even above Pharoah (no doubt because the Egyptians looked up to Pharoah as a god and Yehovah was discrediting Pharoah in the eyes of the Egyptians - the point of the plauges was to discredit each of the Egyptian gods by showing that Yahovah/Moses had power over each of them in turn). That kind of thing would not be quickly forgotten. I have no doubt Akhenaten knew about, and maybe even copied, the biblical Moses - like John F. Kerry copied the life of John F. Kennedy.

12. ### SnakeLordsnakeystew.comValued Senior Member

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5,758
Because the book says so.

Oh wait... which god are we talking about?

Come now Truthseeker, must I really resort to typing the bible here for you?

Hmmm...

ROMANS 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them.

JOHN 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

From the horses mouth:

2 CHRONICLES 34:24-25 "Thus says the Lord: Behold, I will bring calamity on this place and on its inhabitants, all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah,
25 because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath will be poured out on this place, and not be quenched.' "

2 KINGS 23:26-27 Nevertheless the Lord did not turn from the fierceness of His great wrath, with which His anger was aroused against Judah, because of all the provocations with which Manasseh had provoked Him.

2 CHRONICLES 36:16 But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till [there] [was] no remedy.

LUKE 21:23-27 "But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 "And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 " And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
26 "men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.
27 "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

REVELATIONS 14:9-11 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives [his] mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Can I stop now, or do you need more?

Last edited: Nov 4, 2004
13. ### c20H25N3oShiny Heart of a Shiny ChildRegistered Senior Member

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2,017
Because that serpent, the devil tricked man to break the first commandment.
When Eve listened to that serpent, she broke the first commandment

"Thou shalt have no other god's before me"

She should have said ...

"Get behind me satan"

But she {Eve} broke the link to God and man's fall from grace ensued. Truthseeker, there are children being raped out there in this world we live in. Right now in fact. Probably about 12000 of them if not a lot more. God's mercy is great because all flesh have sinned but the price is paid through Jesus' sacrifice but dont underestimate His wrath for those little ones who are tortured and raped and burnt before Him. It is for those that He says "Vengence is mine". If people do not repent they will be on the outside of His care with all those wicked souls who did not repent of the evil they did. And that place burns. For real. I have tasted it. And then I was shown mercy in "Father forgive them for they know not what they do?". His mercy is greater than his anger because He loves you, but you must love Him and God is the Word and Jesus was the Word made flesh. If you have seen Him you have seen the Father.

14. ### TruthSeekerFancy Virtual Reality MonkeyValued Senior Member

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15,162
The one that nobody knows.....

15. ### SnakeLordsnakeystew.comValued Senior Member

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5,758
Which one would that be then? Oh wait, nobody knows..

Anyway, you'll find biblical examples on my last post.

16. ### TruthSeekerFancy Virtual Reality MonkeyValued Senior Member

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God has no wrath. This is a simple ilusion of minds that are way smaller than His. Do you understand God? Because if you don't, you can't really say He has wrath.

Why would God be angry. He is calm and under control. There's absolutely nothing we could do to harm Him. It makes no sense Him having wrath. He can always care about us. But He doesn't need wrath for that, does He?

What you seem to not be able to see is that there is no anger. You said you have tasted it and that "place burns". Is it a literal lake of fire?

It burns because it is God's love touching a cold soul. That's why there's a "lake of fire". Ever went home in the winter and took a warm shower? Don't your feet feel burnt even tough the water is not hot? That's because of the difference of temperature between your feet and the water.It doesn't mean that the water is hot, it only means that your feet is cold.

And so is the true living water......

17. ### TruthSeekerFancy Virtual Reality MonkeyValued Senior Member

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15,162
I think some people do.... But they probably don't talk about it.

18. ### beyondtimeandspaceEverlasting StudentRegistered Senior Member

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554
I would like to add to my last post, due to further research. In the following link, the story of moses is decribed very much as Medicine Woman describes it.

http://www.greatdreams.com/moses.htm

However, there also represents a problem your interpretation as well. The problem is this, that at first Moses did not believe in Aten. Granted, later he does, but this is after likening Aten to the Israelite deity. The point to note, is that Moses probably understands Aten in a different way than other Egyptians would have. In other words, it would continue to go along with the postulation that I have made concerning the symbolisms of these gods. Moses found that symbolic representation (which may or may not have been based upon the original idea from which the Israelite monotheistic God arose) of Aten was worthy of application to the Israelite monotheistic God.

Hence, your interpretation that Moses believed the Sun to be God, is still off-base.

(as a side note, I am intrigued by the skull that is shown on this link, I would like to find out more about it, as it seems to be corroborative with theories that I hold concerning the "gods" the mythologies, etc... cool skull!)

19. ### SnakeLordsnakeystew.comValued Senior Member

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All the worthless gibbering aside, did the biblical passages help at all, or do you feel they can be debunked?

20. ### c20H25N3oShiny Heart of a Shiny ChildRegistered Senior Member

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2,017
And you are luke warm!

How would you feel if you watched your daughter being raped and murdered?
Come back then and tell me that there is no such thing as 'wrath' - Are you saying God is blind to man's actions? That God is unfeeling? That God just wants to kick His shoes off and have a party? You misunderstand the nature of God my friend, not I. What do you think is meant by God's Mercy? Why would He need to show you any mercy? Think in terms of trespasses.

thanks

c20

21. ### §outh§taris feeling causticRegistered Senior Member

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4,832
Apparently that is exactly what Lot did and God rewarded Him by calling him righteous and blessing him.

22. ### c20H25N3oShiny Heart of a Shiny ChildRegistered Senior Member

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Err putting it into context,

Lot was provoked to act that way because of the evil acts that the mob wanted to commit against the strangers staying with him. He had sought to appease them with his daughters but they refused. God was fiercly angry with Sodom and destroyed it with fire and brimstone from above. Lot's enemies were God's enemies which is why He blessed Lot.

23. ### David F.Registered Senior Member

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459
I'm not so sure we can't harm God... God sees man as His bride - God is to mankind as man is to woman (there is nothing homosexual about this since God is not a man). I know how I would feel if my bride committed adultery with another man, so how must God feel when we commit adultery (worship) another god?