women's march

Discussion in 'Politics' started by sculptor, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    4,314
    I personally think some things are over the top but my point is given how they have been sidelined for so long and in some cases badly abused I do think any over reaction need be seen as anything more than a proclaimation that enough is enough and here is a over reaction to treating us so badly for so long.

    Man this guy tried to fight me at a party and he backed away as I lined him up and fell cutting his head.

    I did not touch him but he felt I had made a fool of him so he goes home an beats up his wife.

    I wish I had broken his arms the scum bag.

    I could go on and on...years in a legal office, the family court and just seeing mugs at the pub and frankly over reaction seems to me not nonsense given what goes on and the way some blokes need a good smack in the mouth...and their behaviour needs to be exposed and condemed even at the risk of going over the top.

    And even with over the top they wont change so give them over the top and let them at least progress maybe to more acceptable behaviour.
    A woman has rights that is the way it should be...they are not equal physically so rights seem appropriate.
    A right not to be belittled, right not to be hit, a right not to be regarded as something no more than a thing.
    My first wife first day on the job the boss has a go. She had to quit and my only regret is I did not smash him...and guess why I did not...she pleaded with me not to.
    We neede the income so how many girls may have judt suffered to keep the job.
    Over reaction comes because the stuff goes on so what do you do...shoit and scream but still most think its a joke.
    Well perhaps if her message was recieved without this excuse and that she may be less over the top but really do you ever wonder why she is that way...not because her valid points have been accepted thats for sure.

    You still cant see a wolf whistle is wrong so I guess that would cause frustration in someone who understands it is simply wrong, uncalled for and intimidating.

    Being a bloke you dont feel threatened by such things but you must understand women are not blokes and what may seem non threatening to you is entirely different for them.

    I think if you could put yourself in their shoes you may see things differently.

    In my closed fists.
    I see some pranks on utube and maybe I just get upset seeing folk hurt just because some fool thinks it is fun to belittle someone and even hurt them and expect them to laugh as well.
    Sorry pranks are not humour in my book.
    And the victim is placed in a position where they have to laugh or else they are a bad sport.
    Well I think smacking some pranking fool in the mouth is very funny so I am promoting humour.

    I will nick over and super glue the next bus seat you sit on and we can have a good laugh when you smack me in the face.

    He could have been very upset so how would you know.
    Thats the thing about pranking you have to laugh or else you are a bad sport.
    I think for any man losing his hair would be very upsetting so to be made fun of to boot ...really I dont think it was funny myself.
    Well I suggest she may have reacted that way be ause she may have felt uncomfortable or she was just laughing at you.

    Its not how you see the world it is about realizing others may see things differently.

    The only question to ask is why...why do they over react as it is claimed...I could suggest because they are sick of not being tsken seriously..and even as all can sense their frustration little is presented in the way of...yes I csn see you are upset and I know why.

    It is so good to hear from you...the site has suffered by the lack of your posts...Best wishes
    Alex
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    Hollaback and Cornell University surveyed almost 5,000 people about street harassment and found that 85% of people under 40 years old have taken a different route home to avoid street harassment, 72% have taken a different mode of transportation and 70% had decided against going to a social event like a party or a movie because of potential street harassment.

    People have changed their routines, hobbies and habits just to accommodate for street harassers and that is just not okay. 66% of people said they had changed the way they dressed or changed an outfit so they wouldn’t get harassed. Some people feel the need to pay for a gym membership instead of just running outside for safety reasons.

    They will pay for a taxi or Uber late at night instead of taking public transit or walking just to avoid street harassment, and that can be a financial burden to people as well. In dire circumstances 35% of people had admitted that they had moved or quit jobs because of the high number of street harassers in their neighborhood or work area.

    Why do you think this is minor and harmless?

    Why are you still defending it?
    Are you now denying that you are defending harassment of women on the street by declaring it "minor and harmless", "harmless fun" and accused women speaking out against it as being "feminazis"?
    It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see the giant contradiction in what you just posted, paddoboy.

    Do you think something is "harmless fun" when a large portion of the victims of said "harmless fun" are feeling forced to take different routes home to avoid it, taking different modes of transportation and avoiding going out because of it? Yes or no?

    I mean, when 35% of victims said they ended up having to quit their jobs or move house because of it, is it still "harmless fun"?

    Which is how right wing Rush Limbaugh defines it. Why are you spreading right wing rhetoric from a right wing sexist pig?

    The sociologist Michael Kimmel writes in Angry White Men: American Masculinity at the End of an Era that the term attacks feminism by "phantasmagorically linking campaigns for wage equality, or safety from battery and rape, to the organized, methodical genocide in the Third Reich"

    As I noted above, your views of women shine through your posts.

    So we are expected to know the man's intentions based on what time of day it is?
    What you deem "frivolity and harmless fun":

    Some have argued that such behaviours are harmless, and intended to be complimentary more than critical.

    However, evidence for the benefits of objectification is sorely lacking.

    Overwhelmingly, research suggests that objectification has a harmful effect on women.

    In our own study, for instance, we asked our participants at each survey how much they had been self-objectifying (that is, worrying about how they looked to others).

    Research demonstrates that women who report being objectified on a more frequent basis also report greater body shame as well as symptoms of disordered eating and depression.

    Experiencing the objectifying gaze also decreases math performance among women but not men, and can lead women to self-silence in social interactions.

    Taken together, the literature suggests the effects of objectification are far from flattering
    .​

    And that is aside from the majority who feel they have little choice but to change their lives to try to avoid it.

    Why are you still demanding that something that has been scientifically proven as being clearly harmful to women, is "harmless fun"?
    Once again, when a man sexually harasses me, I don't know what is in his mind. And no, the time of day is not a great indicator of whether he is being harmless or not. Women are physically assaulted and even murdered in broad daylight, on busy streets with many people around them, for not responding how their harasser wanted them to respond. Do you understand now?
    Uh huh. Yeah, we can tell..
    Again re-writing history.

    Australia already had national health care for all. The Whitlam Government's proposal was to implement a tax levy, which failed to pass through the Senate. It was one of the reasons why his Government was dismissed so famously.

    He then tried to pass it through again while in opposition and the Senate voted against it, again. It only passed when the tax levy component and other components were changed or removed. Fraser then agreed to fund it through government funding and not a tax levy. The Medicare that we have today is because of Bob Hawk, who then implemented the tax levy and broadened its scope.

    Now to try to wade through your fail formatting where you seem to be attributing your words to me:

    Because it is sexual harassment.
    What "many others" agree with you on sexually harassing women on the street in this place, paddoboy?

    Have you bothered to stop and ask those you marched in here to defend against the mean "girly", what they actually think about sexually harassing women on the street?
    Yes I do. The Bulldogs. I also know the name of the victim, which I will not release here, and have met several of the officers involved in that investigation during a meeting of law enforcement and sexual assault several years ago. I'll put it this way, those I spoke to believed she was gang raped, and the reason those players were not prosecuted was because of how the justice system views rape victims and because of the general excuses that often follow when sports identities are accused of sexual violence.. That her having consensual sex with one player, somehow or other meant that there was no evidence that she was later gang raped by 6 other players. And this is what you are using to tout that women are "arseholes"? I mean, I know what those players did to her "arsehole", not to mention her vagina and her mouth, the bruises and marks on her body were all indicative of violent rape. So are you sure you want to go there, paddoboy?
    Whitlam was on record about his views regarding the Vietnamese who fought against the North Vietnamese communists, even those who aided Australian troops in the country, as well as those who worked in the embassy. Thousands of them died as a result of his policies. As I noted, what he did will forever remain a blight on our country's history.
     
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  5. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    stuff up
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  7. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    Surveys are a dime a dozen and you certainly have a pocket full of dimes.....
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/austral...ly-to-find-wolf-whistling-unacceptable-survey
    Australian women are less likely than others in other countries to consider social requests for sex unacceptable, according to a Perth universities survey.[4 days ago]
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  8. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    35,188
    Just for the record, when you say something like that, it only reminds insincerity:

    First, look, I disagree with Bells all the time, sometimes even publicly. I don't recall the last time she accused me of condoning sexual harassment and rape. Your complaint is utterly inaccurate and pretty much makes the point.

    However: When you argue that a sex offense isn't a sex offense "because it is minor and harmless"—that is, when you promote safe circumstance for sexual violence—you probably shouldn't follow it up complaining that someone has "a history of accusing anyone that disagrees with you as condoning everything from what you term as sexual harassment to rape".

    No, really. The wisdom of your years—

    —is apparently insufficient to figure that part out.
     
  9. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,703
    My last post answering Bells was a total stuff up in presentation, so apologies and let's try again in the broad light of day.........

    Surveys are a dime a dozen and you certainly have a pocket full of dimes.....
    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/austral...ly-to-find-wolf-whistling-unacceptable-survey
    Australian women are less likely than others in other countries to consider social requests for sex unacceptable, according to a Perth universities survey.[4 days ago]
    I've explained to you many times, and I have plenty of support of both sexes agreeing with me.
    It is minor and harmless and your rhetoric claiming otherwise is just that.
    Well you certainly are not a brain surgeon, as there is no contradiction just huge errors of judgement on your part.
    I don't accept the results of your survey. See first reply.

    And I'm a leftist sexist pig? How about the others that have disgreed with your interpretation, and the many women who also feel it is being taken too far.
    I sincerely hope so....I'm all for equality of the sexes.
    You really believe that some bloke on a building site during the working week, in the middle of the city, crowded with shoppers and those going or coming from work, would go further then a harmless wolf whistle?
    Wolf whistling...and the sheila that smacked me on the arse and remarked "nice"is that enough?
    SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN??

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    A questionable survey is not scientifically proven. And I have given one that supports the opposite outcome.
    What you can tell matters not and will not change things one iota.
     
  10. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    52,780
    And you're a sexist with Union sentiments. Wolf whistling is the poster child for boorish sexist behavior. You can find women that don't mind it, but those women are not feminists. Stop defending this if you care at all about treating women with respect, which I'm not convinced you do.
     
  11. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,703
    You believe and accept what you want Tiassa: My discussion with Bells and her interpretation of Australian politics with regards to the era under discussion is wrong. Just as is her selected surveys.
    What I object to mainly is the painting of any male as a rapist if he dares to suggest that wolf whistling and the like, at best, are at the lowest end of the scale if we even assume harassment.
    Only last night while watching 9's Current Affair program, Tracy Grimshaw [Bells will be familiar with her] was interviewing Lionel Ritchie with regards to a forth coming tour of Australia......Her final question was on this "Me too" movement. While gushingly supporting the movement, he also did "question" the apparent going too far question.

    Obviously, from Bell's last reply to me, she is heavily involved in the movement and associated orginisations. But please, don't start calling every bloke and every sheila that happens to question if it is going too far, as did Lionel] a chauvinist pig or equivalent.
    Also from her last reply it appears she has been the victim of an assault?
    If that is the case then I'm really sorry about her experiences etc and probably understand how emotionally involved she is.
    Anyway, I've said my piece, and other then apologising for the difficulty in reading my previous stuff up, I'll le this subject alone now.
     
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

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    21,703
    The women that don't mind it are not feminists???

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    Is this a giant king size cop out?
    Oh , yeah old fella, whether you are convinced that I do or do not support equality is of no concern to me, and I'll continue to defend my stated position when it suits me, OK? Let me add another flavour to this debacle...There are plenty of men out there that in reality are just afraid to speak out on this going to far aspect. I'm not one of them.
     
  13. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,703
    I'll just comment on this Alex before I go: Please don't presume to know someone you have never met, and that I and the other 9 actually went to school with. The same bloke Bob, played Rugby League for South Sydney Rabbitohs, and due to severe life threatening liver problems, had to give up drinking over 10 years ago. When he got the news of his cancer, and during his treatment, he was actually given 2 months to live. He said "fuck it" and came to our reunion anyway and got on the piss again. He was dead 7 weeks later.
    Before the reunion, I sent him an E-Mail expressing my concerns and sorrow at the news. He replied back to me that I shouldn't worry and he was in "good spirits" but he was taking up drinking again.

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    The wig prank could have been cruel to another person, but us Paddo boys are made of better stuff and we were all well aware of his positive and jovial reactions, even in the face of death. I hope and I believe I would face any similar news as he did.
     
  14. Vociferous Registered Senior Member

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  15. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    52,780
    Yes, women can be anti-feminist. And not whistling at women is the definition of not going very far at all really. If you are fossilized enough in your social norms that you can't even appreciate that the social trend is not to treat women like meat anymore, then the rest of us will just have to wait for people like you to die before things change in even minimal ways.
     
  16. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

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    2,337
    There are plenty of men who absolutely do not think this, but who do think that you are simply a misogynistic creep.

    Also, I seriously doubt that there are plenty of men who are "just afraid to speak out"--we've encountered a number of them here.
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,314
    Well I was not really presuming anything but merely offering a view.

    Still if a mate I think I would have been more considerate and avoided the possibility that such a prank may be upsetting given that it may cause him to be reminded of his sorry situation.

    The best thing I have learnt in recent years is that others often percieve things differently to the way I would expect.

    I always saw myself as placid so it was hard to believe others saw me as aggressive and overbearing.

    I finally was forced to wonder why they could feel that way...and that is how it goes for me re womens rights..its not about what I think is reasonable it is what they feel...to ignore their feelings I believe is wrong thats all.

    It must be hard to see a good mate die and I am sure when your time comes you will be brave and dignified.

    However in the time you have left consider why the feminists have taken as you see it a hard stand.

    Women get a very poor deal generally and rather than accuse them of being over the top perhaps wonder what has driven them to what you see as a somewhat unreasonable approach.

    I do think you are a decent chap but I also think your belief in your decency perhaps causes you to take a position that should not be held and I refer primarily to the suggested innocence of a wolf whistle.

    It really is not inoccent and certainly many girls find it un necessary uncalled for and confronting.

    It is their view that must be taken into account not that you qualify it as inoccent and fun...they simply dont see it that way.

    It is not about what you think is reasonable it is what those who are on the recieving end feel...and it does not make them feel good so for me that must cut across preconceived notions that it is just a bit of fun.

    Alex
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,561
    Okay.

    Now I want you to consider the fact that Australian women still consider it to be harassment.

    The survey of 1426 Australians, commissioned by The Australia Institute, revealed:

    • 87% of Australian women have experienced at least one form of verbal or physical street harassment.
    - Among those 56% were alone the last time it happened;

    - 52% reported harassment was by a man, 23% by a group of men, 4% by women.

    • 83% of those age 18-24 experienced street harassment in the last 12 months
    • 40% of Australian women do not feel safe when walking alone at night in the area where they currently live, compared to 17% of men
    • 87% of Australian women have changed their behaviour in at least one way to ensure their own personal safety in the last 12 months

    Are these numbers acceptable to you?

    Okay? And?

    This makes you 'right'?

    Donald Trump, the self avowed pussy grabber, also had a lot of 'support of both sexes agreeing with' him, does that make him correct or right? Does that make grabbing a woman "by the pussy" without her consent not count as sexual assault?

    From where I am sitting, you're kind of arguing this on your own. What little support you did have has pretty much shut up now. Which begs the question, what are you doing here, exactly? Offering support to Kitta, as you insinuated earlier? He's probably off enjoying time with his wife and given that his baby was due around this time, hopefully enjoying fatherhood or supporting his wife as childbirth fast approaches if she hasn't given birth yet. Have you ever thought to ask him about his views of street harassment of women? How about iceaura? Who has already told you that it is sexual harassment. Capracus? The dude thinks women should sleep with their phone in hand and hire body guards if they can afford it, not to mention getting a vicious guard dog (while hoping the kids don't get mauled) to prevent being raped in our own homes. Thumbs up there for support. Who else? An elderly magistrate who sounds like she's part of the old guard of blaming women for their own sexual assaults and calling child sex abuse victims liars, because they happen to be friends with the abuser.. Who else?

    Having experienced it from a very young age, while still in my school uniform and once even with my father standing right next to me when a mechanic he had taken his car to for a service, congratulated him for having a hot wife and licked his lips while looking at me standing next to him and my father riled up and said 'what the fuck is wrong with you, that's my daughter' and I had to drag my father out of there while the other men in the intervened.. I was 16 years of age and in my high school uniform..

    I can assure you, it is not minor or harmless. It is often terrifying, especially when they leave what they are doing and try to block your path to get a reaction, or follow you down the street because you haven't responded in a way they expect you to or you have ignored them for weeks on end as they do it to you when you walk past. By this point, you will start wearing running shoes to work with your suit, because at least if you need to run, your heels won't hamper you. If you are lucky, they only start calling you a slut, whore, cunt, bitch and tell you to suck their cock by screaming it as you dash past with your head down or facing directly ahead and not making eye contact. If you are unlucky, they stop what they are doing and wait for you to walk past and try to block your path to speak to you, by getting right in your face, they touch your body, sometimes walk right up behind you and grind their penis into your backside as you walk, where you have to push them off, or they try to kiss you and then tell you that you are ugly when you shove them away and look for an escape route.. On a busy street, at a major intersection in the middle of the city in peak hour. This is what happens.. When they follow you as their friends cheer them on, you don't go straight to work, because you don't want them to know where you work, you dash down different streets, keeping an eye out for any police officer on patrol that you can casually walk up to talk to them, and hopefully scare that guy off. You might even ask a guy who is walking in the same direction as you, to just walk next to you and pretend to speak to you because some of the creeps from the building site are following you and then hope like hell that you haven't just accosted an even bigger creep.

    When this starts to happen, usually after several weeks of 'wolf whistling' and cat calling, what you deem to be harmless fun, and it often escalates to this because you haven't responded in a particular way depending on the guys on the building site, you change your route to get to and from work. When those guys figure that out, they then keep an even bigger eye out for you, sometimes walking down to where the train or bus station is, to keep an eye out for you, just so you know they are there. Or you end up having the exact same thing start to happen but with a different building site, and the whole cycle begins again.

    That is what we endure. Daily. I endured this every day, for years. And it's still ongoing. Even my mother experienced this when she was in her 70's for goodness sakes! She refused to travel to the city by herself again after it happened to her.

    You might consider this to be minor and harmless and fun. It is not. It does affect how we live our lives.
    Selective. And you keep whining about lack of the scientific discussions, when you simply ignore anything and everything that is proven scientifically (there are countless of studies about the effects of street sexual harassment out there) because you think men should still have the right to sexually harass women on the street because you think it is harmless and fun.

    For you to accept the results of the various surveys and studies posted about this, would mean you having to admit that you are wrong, that women have fundamental human rights and the right to not be sexually harassed on the street and that it would be for men to not do this to women. Your head is stuck too far up your backside to recognise that women are sexually harassed daily, because you demand that men have the right to behave this way towards women for what you deem to be harmless and fun. Despite all evidence to the contrary.
    I don't believe or think it. I know it.

    Why do you think 87% of Australian women alter their behaviour to try to avoid it? We change how we dress, we start wearing clothes and shoes we can run in, we start mapping out the street and know where the closest police station or hub is just in case, we start carrying our keys splayed in our fingers, we start changing what route we take to get to and from work, we start organising not walking in the city alone and we start waiting for work colleagues to walk to work as a group (safety in numbers). We start looking at changing our work hours, to make sure we don't have to walk past if they are on a break or milling outside by the gate of the construction site, we don't tie our hair up in a ponytail and we are hesitant to leave it down if it's long, because they touch it and stroke it as we walk past, so we start to pin our hair up, or braid it and tuck it up so it can't be grabbed (I ended up cutting my hair much shorter because of it).

    A very limited survey. Other survey's and studies conducted in Australia show how a greater majority of women still consider it to be sexual harassment.
     
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  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    25,890
    We know.
    The existence of a large fraction of men who haven't even caught on to the nature of things like wolf whistling and their effects on the women in their communities,
    is familiar to us all.

    If you are trying to float a reasonable argument about women's march and #metoo folks "going too far" (#metoofar?), launching your effort with a defense of street harassments and their implied threats (demonstrated impunity is a threat) is - metaphorically - holing your boat. Whatever reasonable point you had has been sunk.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,966
    Fictional conversation:

    "Why do you wolf whistle?"
    "I wolf whistle because I want the woman to know she's good looking"​
    "She already knows she is good looking so why do you do it?"
    "Because it is fun to see her reaction"​
    "Her reaction to being whistled with out her consent?"
    "Yeah it's fun to see her degraded and see her reaction"​
    "So you whistle to abuse her?"
    "Yeah .. it's fun"​
    Have you ever asked a woman if she would like you to wolf whistle?"
    "No"​
    "Why not?"
    "Because she would most likely say no, that's why not"​
    "So you wolf whistle knowing that she would most likely say no to it if given the opportunity to say no?"
    "I guess so"​
    "So you are a rapist and violate her right to choose?"
    "But it's fun!"​
    "Who's fun?"
    "My fun!"​

    "So, you abuse her because it is fun to degrade her ability to choose... why?"
    "Because I can and it's a cheap way of making me feel big and strong."​
    "Do you know what the term "Pathetic Masculinity" means?
    ====
    Replace "wolf whistle " with any assault against women's ability to choose.

    Building a weak self esteem at the expense of others is always a cheap shot...

    ...just a mere 2 cents worth
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  21. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,966
    Don't be surprised if more women of all faiths start to wear the Burka just to protect them selves from pathetic males...

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