World's Ice Caps are Melting!

Discussion in 'Earth Science' started by duendy, Sep 28, 2005.

  1. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    791
    Yes. We learned all that in high school too. But I think you spent more time in Greenpeace’s kindergarten than in a College. Everything you say can be found in Wikipedia (and remember that Wikipedia is written by the common people and not by experts in scientific disciplines, as Wikipedia is full of mistakes, assumptions presented as facts, mistakes, and hypothesis presented as already proven.

    Now let us analyze what your knowledge has made you to write and claim as facts: (Jesus!)

    The amount of CO2 absorbed by vegetation is trifle. Sinks for CO2 are in other parts as the oceans. Actually, mature forests as the Amazon jungle (and ALL other mature forests in the world have a negative CO2/O2 balance, that is, they produce more CO2 than they absorb. Only newly planted and growing forests absorb CO2 from the air and convert carbon molecules to lignine for wood production.
    Amazing. I have read many weird and flawed explanations for the action of the CO2 gas in the atmosphere, but this is the first time I’ve heard about the “blocking” properties of CO2 in the stratosphere.

    CO2 is absolutely transparent for the incoming radiation from the Sun. Much later, it has a small ability to “hold” some long wavelengths irradiated from the surface. And that’s it. If it were “blocking” radiation (photons as you say…) in the upper stratosphere, then the Earth would be a snowball. 
    That’s utter nonsense! Ozone depletion is only occurring at some altitudes, at special dates of the year, in very localized regions of the world. And CO2 has nothing to do with it. The amount of O2 is independent of the amount of CO2, as Ozone (O3) could be a function of (1) amount of oxygen in the higher parts of the stratosphere --45 km and up-- and (2) Enough UV-C radiation able to dissociate oxygen molecules.

    I would advise you to go back to school and learn your chemistry again (or read with a greater attention wikipedia). Ozone is the result of short wavelength radiation (UV-C, 230 nanometers and less) hitting oxygen molecules at an altitude above 40 km. Below 40 km the amount of UV-C radiation has decreased and lost its capacity to “split” more oxygen molecules. The radiation present from 40 km down is mostly UV-B and UV-A (besides longer wavelengths, of course, that are not affected by gases in the atmosphere).

    However, UV-B radiation has energy enough to dissociate ozone making oxygen molecules again –and more ozone molecules too, as oxygen atoms encounter oxygen molecules! There are not chemicals reactions between H2O (water) and ozone (O3). Down at the surface, ozone is produced locally by electric discharges for sterilizing water, because ozone is a highly reactive gas with bactericide properties.
    You are forgetting (or perhaps you ignored it?) that temperature goes back to space not only by re-radiation (physically it does not happen, but that would take to science forums pages for explaining it) but also and mainly by convection. See those beautiful high white clouds in summer? Thet are so high because convection. Warm air, heated by the sun and the warm surface is going up because it is being pushed from underneath by cold air. Then convection cannot be seen going up and up because water vapor is left behind and no condensation makes clouds to be seen.

    Man has not the ability or power to upset this delicate balance. At least has not the power exerted by Mother Nature. Mommie Gaia injects in a year more CO2 into the atmosphere than mankind ever did in its whole history on this planet. Mankind used to release 7.000 tons of chlorine contained in CFC annually to the atmosphere, while oceans release 650 MILLION tons of chlorine every year, volcanoes spew 36 MILLION TONS of chlorine, forest fires 8.4 million tons, and so on. Not to mention ocean algae releasing 4.5 million tons of chlorine each year.

    So, who’s upsetting this delicate balance? Mankind or Mommie Gaia?

    That’s a good question. Did you learn something at all in your classes? Or you were just smoking pot and making passes at your female companion students? :m:

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    Your other posts will be answered later. Don't go away.
     
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  3. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    for the latest scientific info on glaciers worldwide, you can download the pdf file: "Glacier Mass Monitoring Buletin" - a contribution to the Global Terrestrial Network for Glaciers (GTN-G), as part of the Global Terrestrial/Climate Observing System (GTOS/GCOS), the Division of Early Warning and Assessment and the Global Environmental Outlook, as part of the United Nations Environment Program (UNEP) and UNESCO, compiled by the World Glacier Monitoring Service (WGMS), 2005:
    http://www.geo.unizh.ch/wgms/mbb/mbb8/MBB8.pdf

    I still can't find anyway to access the html source coding for that graphic file:
    http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_ta...es/fig2-18s.gif
     
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  5. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    791
    Valich: you didn't get the source code because the image was not a html page but simply an image file.

    When yo have an image file then copy the address from the address bar in your browser and paste it in the advanced writing window but with this html tag: <img src= >

    <img src=http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/images/fig2-18s.gif>

    I have added the width=500 at the end because the letters are too small and by dding the width=xxx pixels you can control the size.

    <img src=http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/images/fig2-18s.gif width=500>

    OK, you owe me $10 for the html coding lesson.
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    But that is an unfortunate image you chose. The graph show glaciers that have started to retreat during the Little Ice Age, when Earth's temperatures were 2º C colder than now! What made those glaciers start their retreat during a cold period?

    Then you can see those glaciers from Norway (Engabreen, Nigardsbreen), the Swiss U. Grinderwald, the New Zealand Franz Joseph, etc, that have been advancing during the period of warming of Earth. What made them start growing when the Earth was warming?

    Finally, the graph (a quite biased one) didn`t show data from Pio XI and Perito Moreno in Patagonia -growing glaciers, and FAST growing ones ...

    Please, never show this graph if you want to prove that glaciers are shrinking due to global warming.

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    <img src=http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/images/fig2-18s.gif width=500>
     
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  7. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    Edufer: I don't see where you have even said anything above in your last post except by suggesting that I smoke marijuana and chase girls while you laugh.

    What I posted without references is what I learned in my advanced graduate university classes during the last thirty years (big shit - but you're the one saying "high school"); the other posts were cited from highly advanced scientific sources.

    03 is created by a double reaction: first 02>20, then 02 + 0 > 03. If you increase the proportion of C02 in the atmosphere then where's it going to go? Fact: It contributes to global warming. The less plant life, the less photosynthesis to convert it to 02, the greater the amount of C02 in the atmosphere, thus the greater the proportion of C02. By simple mathematics, the greater the proportion of one element, the lesser the proportion of another (proportions total to 100%?).

    Those "big white clouds" are called Cumulus clouds. They are in the lower troposphere: not the stratosphere or above. The ozone layer and the pollutants such as C02 that trap in the Earth's heat and form the "geenhouse effect" (global warming) occur in the stratosphere and the ozone layer.

    Your first huge, flashy, bright-red-letter post above seemed to imply that we should all suddenly drop what we are doing and stand back to marvel and wonder in "awe" at your apparently "new discovery" that "one" glacier in Norway is advancing rather than retreating like all the rest. What the heck was that all about?

    "Space to base. Hello?" Let's get back down to Earth now.
     
  8. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    Okay, you're right! I owe you ten dollars for the coding lesson. Now for another ten tell me how you do the bold fonts and colors?
     
  9. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    You're not even reading what I post. Researchers state that "In Norway this [the Franz Joseph glacier advance] is very likely to due to increases in precipitation owing to the positive phase of the North Atlantic Oscillation [wind currents? the Polar Easterlies that are now effecting Northern Europe?] and in the Southern Alps of New Zealand and due to wetter conditions with little warming since about 1980."
     
  10. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    Life is harsh on the freezing tundra of the Arctic Circle, but it can be much harder when snows do not fall. In recent years, snows have failed to fall as normal across large parts of the barren land dotted with low birch and pines.

    source: the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), Dr. Albert Klein Tank of the Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute (member of IPCC).
    http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/11/22/norway.warming.reut/index.html
     
  11. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    791
    The Franz Joseph is not in Norway. It is in New Zealand. And there are notONE advancing glcier in Norway. There are many. If you cannot, I will explain later why.

    Glaciers are not good indicators of warming. They react too slowly to temperature (their mass is so big their thermal inertia is also huge). They retreat due mostly to calving (Do you know what calving is?)

    And as my final contribution to your enlightening on glaciers, here is a summary of ALL files contained in the World Glacier Inventory. You should know that the World Glacier Monitoring Service (WGMS), only survey a small portion of glaciers in the world, and because they are short on resources (money) they concentrate on those glaciers that seem to be shrinking because they guarantee a steady cash flow for research. Study the paste job from an Excel file of those 58.585 glaciers. Read the summary, analyze it and weep… for the way they have been conning you.

    TOTAL GLACIERS = 58.585

    RETREAT TOTAL = 8.691

    STATIONARY TOTAL = 10.621

    ADVANCING TOTAL = 1.180

    UNCERTAIN = 38.093

    RETREAT: 14,84%
    ADVANCE: 2%
    UNCERTAIN: 65%
    STATIONARY: 10,25%

    NO RETREAT: 77.25%

    STATIONARY + ADV: 12,25%


    Total retreating = 14.84%
    Total No change + advancing = 85,16%


    * * * * * * * * * * *
    PS: For bolds and color, fonts and other options click on the Go Advanced instead of the "Post quick reply", and work with the Advanced mode window with all those nice buttons and smileys and the cherry on top.
     
  12. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    Thanks!

    But why are you constantly using the large fonts with red and blue colors?

    The majority of glaciers in the world are retreating! Where do you get the "No retreat: 77.25%" from"? You chastize me for citing a presumed "press release" but then you yourself provide no sources at all! Say what you mean and mean what you say!
     
  13. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    791
    For clarity and impact. Psychology. Journalist experience. Besides, I like colorful posts.
    The data was downloaded directly from the World Glacier Monitoring Service (WGMS) database two years ago. No update of their database is available. They haven’t updated their reports since 2003. The last one published in 2005 is a repetition of the 2001-2003 report.

    The majority of glaciers are retreating? No, they don't. Only those in the WGMS database. And their own database shows 77.25% of world glaciers are NOT RETREATING. They are either stable or advancing.

    Retreating glaciers are only 14,84% of those believed to exist. Don’t believe me, just download their database, spend about two months analyzing all those 58.585 glaciers and inputting data to an Excel spreadsheet, and get the statistic. Easy. Just press the "enter" key.

    I am sorry to take the veil from your eyes. I know it is a painful experience. It is as when somebody told us that Santa Claus was our daddy. But then we grew up to reality, and swore no one was ever going to deceive us. And then we went and cast our votes to some politicians. It is called, “the vicious circle” of gullible people.

    The only known vaccine is a combination of skepticism and search for knowledge. It takes a lot of patience.
     
  14. Anomalous Banned Banned

    Messages:
    1,710
  15. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,232
    I look forward to an explanation of how uncertain becomes the equivalent of no change. It should be fascinating.
    Based upon the figures you quote, and using your own methodolgy, I find the data to reflect this.

    Advancing 2%
    Stationary 10.25%
    Total No Change + Retreating79.84%


    I am sure you will do your best to educate me in the error of my ways. [By the way, you were wrong about Santa Claus too.]
     
  16. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    791
    OK, here we go again. The discussion is between retreating (shrink, melting, etc) glaciers and non-retreating glaciers (advancing and stable). We could include here those glaciers classified as “uncertain”. The word “uncertain” is used by the WGMS when they know nothing about a glacier, so it is better to leave uncertain things out. Right?

    Then, it follows that we cannot put together non-changing glaciers with retreating glaciers. That lies out of the discussion parameters: “retreating or non-retreating”. Wrong?

    From 58,585 known glaciers in the world (by the WGMS):

    8,691 are retreating.
    10,621 are stationary (no change)
    1,180 are growing.


    Translated into statistics (the most elegant way of lying):

    Growing: 2%
    Retreating: 14.84%
    No change: 10.25%
    Sheer ignorance: 65%

    TOTAL: 92.09%


    The difference lies in the “Uncertain” figure that could be between 60% and 73%)

    Leave “uncertain” out of the discussion. Then we can deal with 20,492 glaciers whose status is well known. (They say so, but…) A new statistic will give us a different idea:

    Growing: +5.6%
    Retreating: +42.4%
    No change: +52%


    So the final result is:

    Growing + No change = +57.6%
    Retreating: +42.4%


    What looks as more reasonable situation, if we accord that the uncertain glaciers can be split half and half between no change and retreating.

    Conclusion: Less than half of world's glaciers are retreating, not MOST glaciers as commonly claimed and believed.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
    BTW: It is refreshing to know that I am wrong about Santa Claus (or Père Noël?) existence. By any chance, do you have Santa’s address or phone number? I would like to give him a call. As I say to my children: "Santa, I have never believed in you --but I have always loved you."
     
  17. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    19,083
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4467420.stm
     
  18. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,232
    Don't try patronising me little boy, I have a post-graduate degree in patronising. I reserve it for wallies such as yourself who couch their ignorance in a cornucopia of terminology, citations, and self righteous expositions.

    Your original position, in large red letters was

    Total No change + advancing = 85,16%

    Your revised position is

    Growing + No change = +57.6%
    Retreating: +42.4%


    Don't try dissembling. You are smart enough to know you are guilty of intellectual dishonesty, by posting these two disparate figures, without retracting the first. Your detailed explanation of how each was arrived at simply illustrates where you were lying, it does not excuse it.


    As for Santa Claus, I, and millions of other parents are Santa Claus. Santa Claus is a concept made real each Christmas by loving parents. You're not having a very good day, are you.
     
  19. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    And it says in the first paragraph:
    "The scientists say that rising temperatures caused by greenhouse gases are increasing humidity, which in turn amplifies the temperature rise. This is potentially a positive feedback mechanism which could increase the impact of greenhouse gases such as CO2."

    C02 is greenhouse gas. And this is what this article also says?
     
  20. valich Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,501
    That's about 43% retreating: a lot different then your post above uncited post stating 72%. So what should we believe from what you post?

    You still have not adequately documented ANY of your sources as you scorned me that I do: and I did! Years, dates, journal article source, authors, website? Be scientific!

    Also, what's with this immature trend to use bold faced colored print? I'm assuming it's just to celebrate Christmas? Either way, no place for this on an "objective" scientific forum as all it does is distract from the content material and unnecessarily take up space.
     
  21. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    791
    I write in big bold red fonts because that seems to be the only way morons understand what they are reading. In this case it fully applies.

    None of you has understood why the difference between the first figures given and a correction that takes out of the calculations that 65% of uncertain glaciers –just to give a chance to warmer’s stupid and fallacious claim that MOST of world glaciers are retreating.

    Some moron said: “Don't try dissembling. You are smart enough to know you are guilty of intellectual dishonesty, by posting these two disparate figures, without retracting the first. Your detailed explanation of how each was arrived at simply illustrates where you were lying, it does not excuse it.“

    You never read what is written on black and white, don't you? That's why I use red bold fonts. The source is, and I repeat this for the Nth time, the official data from the WGMS, the same link you provided. You cannot have nothing better. I am being more scientific than you that only post press releases of studies you haven't read (and will not understand even if you finish reading one).

    And I have been honest enough as to make a new statistic estimate of the data contained in the WGMS (World Glacier Monitoring Service), that no one of you lazy bums have made the attempt of downloading the database and check the veracity of my claims.

    So, until you make just that, then all you are saying is breathing through the wound and showing your frustration for having been debunked in your Green Litany recitation: MOST glaciers retreating?. I have proved beyond doubt they are not.

    And for those with a master degree in patronizing, they already know where they can shove their degree into…
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2005
  22. Edufer Tired warrior Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    791
    That’s is 42.4% not 43% , and you find it “A LOT DIFFERENT” because I’ve left out those 38,093 glaciers that no one knows what is going on with them. That's scientific honesty.

    And please show the rest of the people here where I write 72% for any item in the list. The nearest figure is 77.25% - Now read my original post and repeat after me: “I can’t read, I will try harder next time”.

    Originally Posted by Edufer

    RETREAT: 14,84%
    ADVANCE: 2%
    UNCERTAIN: 65%
    STATIONARY: 10,25%

    NO RETREAT: 77.25%

    STATIONARY + ADV: 12,25%


    (SOURCE: World Glacier Monitoring Service)

    So I stand now by my first figures: 77.25% of world glaciers are NOT retreating –and disprove me!

    You bore me.
     
  23. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

    Messages:
    5,874
    There are about 160,000 known glaciers in the world (Armstrong et al 2005). The WGMS is including "glacial inventories" and not all "known" glaciers. These inventories include data such as geographic location, area, length, orientation, elevation, and classification of morphological type and moraines, though ablation versus accumulation isn't necessarily known.

    On the contrary, they've been found to be very good indicators (Dyurgerov 2003; Oerlemans 2005), particularly if ablation rates of mountain or non-polar glaciers are examined. Those that question whether or not the climate is warming are simply not looking at the data. However, it is fair to question the extent to which that warming is anthropogenic.

    Simply basing assumptions about global warming on the retreat/advance of quantity of glaciers isn't productive. It is the mass of glacial retreat or advance that is important. Also, singling out one or two fast advancing glaciers, such as the Franz Josef, can be misleading, because detailed analysis of this particular glacier has been used to demonstrate that "[t]here is a strong correlation among glacier behaviour, key climatic variables, and atmospheric circulation patterns [and to] demonstrate that some maritime glaciers can advance, even during global warming, if the suitable circulation patterns are favourable (Hooker & Fitzharris 1999)." This study showed some very strong correlations between localized weather patterns and net accumulation. Localized weather patterns that were, very likely, in response to climate warming.

    Measurement of the 160,000 known glaciers will necessarily be the work of satellites, which have shown already that mountainous, sub-polar glaciers are receding at alarming rates (Kargel et al 2005).


    References:

    Armstrong, R.; Raup, B.; Khalsa, S.J.S.; Barry, R.; Kargel, J.; Helm, C.; and Kiefer, H. (2005). . Boulder, CO: National Snow and Ice Data Center. [Digital media].

    Dyurgerov, M. (2003). Mountain and subpolar glaciers show an increase in sensitivity to climate warming and intensification of the water cycle, Journal of Hydrology 282, 164–176.

    Hooker, B. L. and Fitzharris, B. B. (1999). The correlation between climatic parameters and the retreat and advance of Franz Josef Glacier, New Zealand, Global and Planetary Change, 22(1-4), 39-48

    Kargel, J; Abrams, M; Bishop, M; Bush, A; Hamilton, G; Jiskoot, H; Kääb, A; Kieffer, H; Lee, E; Paul, F. et al. (2005). Multispectral imaging contributions to global land ice measurements from space, Remote Sensing of Environment, 99(1-2), 187-219.

    Oerlemans, J.H., (2005). Extracting a climate signal from 169 glacier records, Science, 5722: 675–677.
     

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