Yeshua ben Joseph

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by StarScream, Aug 2, 2000.

  1. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    Okay, I have a bit of time. Just so you'se guys know, I'm running short on staff nowadays so I'm actually having to work most of the day. So please excuse the choppiness you'll probably see in my posts, I'm writing them between calls.

    Lori,

    Now, before you get your panties in a bunch, (thank goodness Heathen's offline at the moment, he'd be gettin' all hot & bothered right about now, lol) you gotta know I do care about you. Damned if I know why, but I do. An' I'm not picking on you, I'm just getting a bit frustrated with you, and I can't let this slip by. And the "foil hat" comment really was a joke, that's why I peppered it with smileys, I wasn't really trying to offend you, just get my point across. The rest of the post was serious, but that last comment really was just a joke, okay? (end disclaimer)

    Okay, moving on, "I wish that you wouldn't allow your misconceptions and prejudices regarding christians and christianity cloud your mind so much."

    Huh? Please point out anything I said about Christians or Christianity that you believe indicates a misconception or a prejudice. Really, I don't see what you're talking about.

    "I know that Satan exists ok? " Okay, well, I know he doesn't. So where does that leave us? With opposing views, that's where. So why should I accept your view when you won't accept mine?? You act like all of a sudden this light is going to come on over my head and I'm gonna start believing in a purely evil being. I'm sorry Lori, but it just ain't gonna happen. Just as I don't ever expect you to start believing in my God and Goddess. So be it.

    Can you have your opinion? Certainally! Can I have mine? Certainally! Can you poop all over my opinion? Apparently so! Can I poop all over yours? Apparently not! Do you see where I'm having trouble with this??


    "And it's also not like the Bible doesn't do a perfect job of describing the teachings and the methods and the goal of Satan. " and "what's with this "Lori-land" bullshit? Try the Bible ok?"

    Lori, you know as well as I do that just about everything in the bible can be twisted around to justify just about anyone's goal or opinion. Just visit a "god hates fags" or "god hates blacks" or "god hates _______(fill in the blank)" website if you'd like an example. We are both smart enough to know these sites are garbage, right? I say "Lori-land" because you are the ONLY person I have EVER met with this alien/demon/phase-shift/whatever theory. That is YOUR theory, is NOT in the bible, though you may find things here & there that would back it up, just like it appears to back up so many other ideas. Obviously, some of these conflicting ideas are false. Yours strikes me as being particularly "out there" (pardon the pun), and of all the theories I've heard, it seems to me to be just about the least likely. So that's where the "Lori-land bullshit" comes from. If/when I read the bible, I'll betcha a few thousand dollars I won't find any mention of aliens, phase shifts, genetic maniuplation... It's all in the interpretation, in YOUR interpretation.

    Last thought for the moment: "...fluffy little goddess..." Fluffy? Hee, hee, hee!

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    She's a lot of things Lori, but She ain't just fluffy! She's the Dark Mother too, She causes death and destruction along with life and creation. She is the Full Circle that all life passes through, both the "fluffy" stuff and the "heavy" stuff. She is Life, which consists of bright moments as well as dim ones, creation as well as destruction, growth as well as decay, etc.

    Blessings.
     
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  3. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Ok, fine, I've pooped. Yes, yes, and the cussing. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my! Whatever. How about this....I'll stop using the f word if Tiassa quits posting all of these obnoxious, insane, warped, anti-christian links and refs by insane people who know and understand nothing about my faith yet claim to be christians. IS THAT FAIR??????? Hey Tiassa, is that f'ing fair or what? We've been talking now for a year right? And I've got HOW MANY posts out here again? Do you think that you could get it through your fat head that I don't buy into the insanity bs that you so conveniently use to deny my faith? Get a clue....I'm apparently not as gullable as you are, so give it up....I'm never going to buy it ok? None of the "Death to Homosexuals" crap you can post on here has anything to do with christianity. Just because some insane idiot says so, doesn't make it true, and if you would look at the word and understand it for about 2 seconds, you would see that....unless you're retarded, like the people that you keep posting about that is. You let them win Tiassa. That's what pisses me off. You let those asshole's make a point, by buying into their warped idea of what they want Jesus to be like....only to feed their own egos. They are blind, and so are you, and for you to continually try to put that stupid useless blindfold on my eyes gets old after a year or so. So forgive me my anger and frustration, but honestly, I don't want to see another stupid bs link like that ever posted to me again. You want to know my opinion about some f'd up theology like that, I'd be glad to offer it up, but you and I both know Tiassa, that you already know my opinion about these things, you're just trying to piss me off right? So congratulations. You piss me off, then I have to come out here and apologize for getting pissed, and you get to sit back and have a laugh at my expense. Are you bored? Whatever.

    MC,

    Ok, this is what I mean, you take it personally don't you when I say that I think your goddess is a demon. YOU SAY, "I worship demons", or "You think I worship demons". Well, do you understand that I know that you don't worship demons? Like you don't know that they're demons, so it's not like you're worshipping a demon, you don't believe they exist. I keep getting a sense of personal defense from you, and I guess it stands to reason...I just want to make sure you know that I know that you don't know that they're demons. Does that make sense? It's not like I think you're doing it on purpose you know? It's not personal...I'm not trying to make it that way. I like you...but I don't like them, and I don't like what they're doing to you. Can that be ok with you? I can't change how I feel about this. I don't have a choice. You guys want me to believe that soooooooo much is open to sooooooooo varied an interpretation in the Bible. Remember, that's YOUR religion, not mine. I don't think that everything is relative, or open to anyone's personal interpretation. Yea, realistically, I don't know the absolute truth, and neither does anyone else...but there IS ONE. And IT is NOT open to interpretation. And I'm sorry, but if you read the Bible, and studied it, even just the MAJOR, overriding principles, you would see that what you believe to be true about it just doesn't jive. It just doesn't work. To say that there is no good or evil, no right or wrong, and that everything is relative, goes directly against the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ. There is just no way around that without the use of some very dark rose colored glasses. Let me ask you this, because it seems contradictory to me but...How can harm be done, if there is no evil or wrong? What is the definition of harm, if there is no right or wrong?

    Sorry Francis...I'll try harder...*Lori climbing back up on the "wagon"*

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    You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 05, 2000).]
     
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  5. Searcher Registered Senior Member

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    651
    Lori,

    Don't hold back - tell us what you really think!

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    You make it way too easy, Lori. If you didn't react with such volatility to what people say here, we wouldn't bother trying to get your goat - there wouldn't be much point in it. Also, I might point out that you're usually the one to start it with the comments you make about the beliefs of others, which makes it soooooo much fun for us to retaliate with similar comments about you and your beliefs.

    Actually, I think Tiassa has made some very valid and well thought out observations here, to which you have failed to respond in a rational manner. Don't blame us if you fail to keep your head in a debate. Your shortcomings are not our problem.

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    An ye harm none, do what ye will.
     
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  7. Lori Registered Senior Member

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    Searcher,

    Well please forgive me my shortcomings then, by all means, I'm so sorry. Do you mind answering me a question though, in regards to your "kudos to Tiassa for his good points"? And that is, how do you think the post he made in response to mine, citing some homophobic organized rhetoric, was at all relevant to the discussion? Maybe I'm just missing it, but I fail to see a point, which leads me to believe that he has no point, but just wishes to push my buttons? I don't know? But back to the orginal topic, I'd be happy to oblige...

    Tiassa,

    #1) You say that I am attributing the teachings that are cited by Starscream above, and to teachings that are perpetuated by spiritual beings such as goddesses, or aliens, or masters of wisdom, to Satan as an excuse to not give deeper thought to those beliefs. And I'm sorry, but I challenge you on this. This is no excuse, and this isn't some blind rhetoric I picked up somewhere that I haven't thought about. As a matter of fact, for at least the past two years, I've been doing a lot of research into these types of spiritual manifestations and what are sometimes called new age religions, and how this all relates to what it says in scripture. You know, and you don't give a crap if that's been a heavy focus, and I must say a rather intimate one, regarding my friendship with Flash, and sharing in her experience with all of this. This isn't something that I take lightly, and shouldn't you know that? Don't you understand how condescending YOU are being by assuming that I'm spewing blind rhetoric just so I don't have to think for crying out loud?

    #2) What is this "the devil has no purpose" thing? Are you making that up? Where in the bible does it describe what Satan is about? Are you kidding? How about all over the place, read it sometime? I don't even know what to say to that??? Do you really want me to go into how he's a fallen angel? Used to be the best of the best? God's right hand man? The fall? And his purpose would be to deceive mankind...not because he gives a rat's ass about us anymore, but just to hurt God. To turn us away...distract us with our flesh, to rationalize idolatry, to blind us so that we never get to know the difference. It's kind of a big topic, but that's a start. I'm just not sure where you're getting this "Satan is made up" thing...maybe you could clarify. And maybe you could clarify the difference between an upper case and lower case s in satan? What in the hell are you talking about? That was a pun!

    #3) You mentioned something about making satan a scapegoat. What are you talking about? How am I making satan a scapegoat? A scapegoat for WHAT?! There is nothing in this conversation that we're having which points to satan as a scapegoat for anything, and I know I'm not imagining that...so again...please, please clarify.

    #4) Ok, as for your next paragraph, may I just begin by saying that you are just profoundly wrong in an all encompassing sense. Now for particulars, warding off devils, as you so eloquently put it, is not some knee-jerk reaction of mine when someone's beliefs conflict or confuse mine. Now that IS what you said...that's exactly what you said...do you understand how pathetically demeaning that is? Who cares if you understand. The truth is this, whether you guys like it or not...these beliefs do not confuse me, and I am more familiar with these beliefs than some who claim to believe! As I've said, and it's obvious, this isn't the first time I've heard this stuff. I've read up on it ok? And guess what? Because I AM familiar, and I also AM familiar with what it says about Satan in the bible, THAT is where my conclusions come from, NOT the opposite of that which you are proposing. You act like I'm making this stuff up just to hear myself talk, or just to get on your nerves. I'm not making this up! Satan REALLY does present himself to be beautiful, and loving, and desirable, and peaceful, and he really is a deceiver of mankind, and he really does know how to take what we like about the bible, and smart enough to know what we can't argue with about the bible, and then leave the other half out. That's what you expect me to do. That's what I would HAVE to do in order to buy into the stuff about everything's relative, and there is no right and wrong, and the devils are imaginery.

    Then you say something about negros, which, I'm just not even understanding, nor do I wish to...

    Which leads me to HATING and attributing DEVISISH ATTRIBUTES to my fellow chatters, and demeaning their academic and spiritual credibility, and ALL THIS because it's easier than understanding them? Wow. That's quite an assumption you're making. Are you sure about that? *startled look* First of all, I do not hate them, oppose them, nor do I attribute devilish attributes to them. This is not about THEM. As for THEM, I respect them, I appreciate their intelligence, I think that they're nice people with good intentions, and I do not get the impression that most of the people out here are lax in their quest for spirituality. As a matter of fact, I think that the only way a show of this nature is warranted by demonic spirits is in light of a spiritual quest. He doesn't pull out the heavy artilery for the light weights. I know that you have to be a seeker of the truth to have the opportunity to be deceived in this particular way in the first place. People who are resided to atheism or agnostic beliefs are easy...well, he gets to them the same way he gets to all of us...the flesh. Are you trying to say that I think a person has to be stupid or a "spiritual retard" or not educated enough about whatever to be deceived by satan?!?!?!?! Uh, I'd have to include myself then...as he continues to deceive me on a daily basis I'm sure. Just not in this particular way...not with the laser light show...but believe me, I've got my own pair of blinders that I will work to remove until the day I keel over. If someone knew they were being deceived, then they wouldn't be being deceived now would they? It's not an insult. This isn't personal. Ok, this part is, but only this part....I think that the idea of there being no absolute truth, no right and wrong, no good and evil, in the universe, and that everything is just relative, and there are no rules, no consequences, no bad, no good, it's all just how you choose to see it, is illogical based upon REALITY. When you look around the world today, when you live your life, when you know pain and joy, when you have to solve a moral paradox, it's an illogical premise. Like I said, how can harm exist if there is no difference? If everything is relative, THEN SO IS HARM.

    #5) You say that everything that I see as evil in this world is according to how my God wants it...and yes, I agree with you. But let me clarify...given the free will that the beings that God created were given, this is how He wants it to be. This is how it has to be, yea, cause He said so, and ya know, He's always right. The whole point is that we have a choice, we had a choice, satan had a choice. Which if I'm not mistaken PROVES that there MUST be a difference, or there would be no choices...a right choice, and a wrong one, a good one, a bad one, one based upon holy intentions, and one based upon malintent. Yea, the fact that we suffer from sin is SUPPOSED to show us that there exists sin. It does me, but that's me?

    #6) As for the notion of Jesus sitting at a bar laughing at us, or me...how do you expect me to take you seriously? What are you trying to do, make it seem like I was boasting about my infinite knowledge of satan? Listen _____, I'm not saying I'm Jesus, ok? I'm not talking about any more of a knowledge base than anyone else with half a brain can't get from the most BASIC messages in the bible. Man, Jesus isn't laughing ok? He's not. It's not funny...you should know that.

    #7) And for your last comment regarding theology exercising authority...I have a feeling this is your typical "anti-christian power trip" rhetoric...but just to ask...what authority are you referring to Tiassa? Mine? Over whom? Over what? Over nothing, that's what. I can always count on you to totally miss the point can't I? This is what I think...for the record...that satan is the most deceiving being in relation to humans that exists. In your arrogance, you are assuming that I am assuming that for someone to be deceived by satan, that they must be stupid, or disconcerning, or gullable, or intellectually, or spiritually challenged. No, actually, I think that generally, they're intellectually and spiritually enlightened enough to be seekers in the first place, and that's impressive enough to start. See Tiassa, what you're accusing me of believing is contradictory...you say on one hand that I'm glorifying satan by assigning him this ability to deceive, and then you turn around and claim that I'm belittling the spiritual and intellectual capabilities of those he deceives. That's backwards. The better the deceiver that I think he is, the more credibility I give to those who he deceives. If I were to believe that satan had no power, or was just a myth, or was "obviously evil" and recognizable, THEN AND ONLY THEN would I be discounting the credibility of those who are "stupid enough" to be deceived. See my point?

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    You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.


    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 05, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 05, 2000).]
     
  8. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    Lori,

    Uh, did I say anything about the remark regarding the homophobes when I said that Tiassa had made some good points? Where did you get the idea that's the post I meant? The actual post I was referring to at the time was the one he posted on August 03, 2000 at 02:36 PM, when he made all those points about "Satan", i.e., his purpose in the universe, his purpose in the Christian religion, how you are always so quick to blame everything on a character that many of us consider to be fictional, etc. Instead of responding in a rational manner to Tiassa's points in that post, you kept going off about some remark in a previous post.

    I guess that Tiassa's point to you when he brought up the homophobe issue was that the Bible shouldn't be taken as 100% literal truth, and the only people who insist that it is literally 100% true are the same nutty fundamentalist types who believe that homosexuals should be put to death. Now that you mention it, I guess I can include that post in the list of good points that Tiassa has made and to which you have failed to respond in a rational manner. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

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    An ye harm none, do what ye will.
     
  9. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Searcher,

    Why the animosity? Haven't you talked to your goddess in a while honey? I did respond rationally to his post????????? See, maybe Tiassa can jump out here and clear this up but, Searcher, dear, he didn't post that with the message of "see what happens when you take the Bible too literally". He posted that out here because he actually uses that BS as an excuse to say that christianity is a bunch of malicious, insane, hateful crap, that was basically made up in order to serve someones power trip. So see, Tiassa actually believes that these idiots are practicing christianity, so his point is that if that is christianity, then it's garbage, obviously. Well, my response is the same as it has been for a year now, the gazillionth time over that he's posted this idiotic arguement is that THAT'S NOT CHRISTIANITY...STUPID! That's why I went off, and just told him to f off...he's an f'ing broken record with the crap, and it makes no sense to begin with. He knows, HE HAS TO KNOW, how I feel about that CRAP, and YET, he continues to bring it up!?!?!?!?!?! WHY? It's illogical. Now if his point was....see what happens when people use religion for the wrong intent? For power? See what happens when people who don't understand Christ, nor know Him, nor care to know Him, try to practice "christianity"? See satan at work within organized religion? Maybe if he were to choose some different verses out of the Bible to prove these hate mongers wrong, and said "See, that's not what Jesus said". But he doesn't. He wants to believe that the insane bs IS christianity, therefore supporting his denial of faith in Christ. He doesn't like the fact that I keep pointing out how ludicrous his arguement and justification is. Soooooo, given the irrationality of HIS post, AND the fact that he and I have discussed this bs at length for oh, a YEAR or so, I think that f you is a completely rational response. Slightly obnoxious, yet rational none the less. It's like what he wants me to say is "Oh well Tiassa, you're right, christianity MUST be a bunch of crap, because Jesus teaches people to want to kill faggots". And I'm sorry Searcher, but you will NEVER hear something THAT STUPID come out of MY mouth...EVER. I know better, and he knows that.

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    You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
     
  10. Searcher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    651
    Lori,

    No animosity here - sorry if it reads like that. I guess the written expression of disagreement or reproof can come across as animosity, but I really don't intend it that way. But speaking of posts that are full of animosity, perhaps you should go reread some of yours whenever you emerge from that lower half of your emotional sinewave. I think you will have to agree that your use of expletives against Tiassa, or anyone else for that matter, demonstrates a lack of self-control, particularly in light of your promise not to do so. In my opinion, at least, that qualifies your response as irrational.

    Anyway, just to refresh your memory on what Tiassa said in response to some of your remarks (beginning with him quoting one of your statements):


    In the italicized part, you were saying that you cannot take the portions of the Bible you like and discard the rest - in other words, the entire Bible is true - right? In the bold part, you painted those who read the Bible in such a piecemeal manner as warped, illogical, etc. - right? Well, is this not how the Fundies think? The same people who support the death penalty for homosexuals? At any rate, that's the meaning I derived from Tiassa's remarks, but perhaps Tiassa would be so kind as to enlighten us on his intended meaning?

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    An ye harm none, do what ye will.
     
  11. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Ok, yes Searcher, I agree, I think, if I have this straight. You're saying that what I'm saying is wrong about taking half of the bible as true and ignoring the other half, like Starscream and others do, is the same thing that fundies do, while spouting their hate messages...right??? Ok, yes, it's the same thing!!!!! I'm not sure if the intent behind the action is the same, as I haven't really given it much thought. But I didn't get that same message from Tiassa. What I got was that in the italic portion, he's questioning whether an imperfect person can conclude that the bible is the word of God. Which doesn't really make sense to me as an analogy, but it's the way it reads to me none the less. He's still trying to disprove something. Like as if due to the fact that these mistakes are made, that the bible isn't really the word of God. When the bible itself denounces doing exactly what we're talking about people doing! And then in the bold part, he goes on to question whether taking part of the bible as truth, and ignoring the other half, is wrong according to the hate mongers???? It's the very same thing that the hate mongers do...I'M the one who's pointing out that BOTH of these "groups" are wrong according to the teachings of Jesus which are in the bible. So no Tiassa, not according to the hate mongers...according to me and according to the bible and according to Jesus and according to the faith which is called christianity. It's a fairly simple concept, which is why my frustration shows...Tiassa is a very smart person, so I know it's not a lack of intelligence that's holding him back on this one. Can't figure it out, and it's frustrating, so I'm sorry.

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    You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.
     
  12. Francis Ritchie Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    52
    Hey guys, just a small note,

    I take the whole Bible as the truth, but it must be put into context. The Bible is a continueing story about God's interaction with his people, it involves progress and it involves change, which is why it seemingly has contradictions in it. I'm not going it to it to much, but that's what I think, the Bible is a story about development of firstly a nation (Israel) and then another nation (the church), and the story unfolds accordingly.

    Just my opinion but I hope it helps some of this frustration.

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  13. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    37,882
    Wow.

    Normally I'm not afraid to pitch high and tight, but Lori seems to think I've pulled an "Esteban Yan" here.

    I'll try to start w/Lori's 8/5 post with the list of long questions:

    I'm sorry, Lori, but you really do have a propensity for relying on "Satanic" inspiration for your initial dismissals of many people's reasonably arguable ideas.

    Consider, please, Our Friend StarScream. Welcome to Exosci, son! Your first post makes you Satanic! The first line of your first response: Well hello Satan!

    Now even I would have let that go as a joke; at this point I don't care; it seems to be part of your ... humor, as I'm willing to agree for the time being. So Our Friend spills a more daring second post than most of us are willing to put up, and what does that get?

    Okay:

    * Uh, I haven't been taught anything like that whatsoever by Jesus or in the Bible ....

    Neither had the philosophers who, a thousand years ago, planted seeds that would build into ideas, some of which are included (properly by the philosophers' intents) in StarScream's posts. Those wretched philosophers didn't need to be taught it from the Bible; they were trying to figure out the same thing that many of us wonder: What has happened to the House of Christ?

    * Or could it be..........SATAN?!?!?!

    That line was stale before Carvey left Lorne's house. Here, the appearance of a joke in your first response to StarScream evaporates, not just under the weight of your regression to the Satan Argument, but in your generally condescending tone.

    * See guys, this is the religion of the coming antichrist. This is what Satan is very good at

    Didn't I say the Satan bit was getting stale?

    * It's bullshit, it's warped, it's a pipe-dream, and a misconstrued illogical one at that.

    I forget, did I mention condescending?

    * On second thought, you must be wearing rose colored glasses

    I forget, did I mention condescending?

    On the one hand, I might actually agree with you, but I think that having endured a year's worth of Satan as your primary argument, compounded with an utter lack of any argument demonstrating the necessity of any Devil in the Universe leaves me with a rather bitter sentiment: if it's really something important to you, why not learn the heritage which has preceeded your faith, which has built the structures against which you compare your faith, which have set the standards by which you measure yourself. What I'm after, if we might invoke for a moment the Crusades, is that regardless of what you believe about Christ, it is inextricably connected with the past. The reason we don't have such atrocities (in general) coming from the Christian quarter in the modern day is that society has learned the danger of genocidal missions and generally tries to prevent them. Furthermore, that part of the Christian heritage which exists between the rape of Constantinople and the present has demonstrated that such strong-arm methods are not the best route to achieving God's will. Certainly, I'm aware that encomienda and prayer towns are something people had to figure out didn't work. I don't fault those times. But if we don't pay attention to the malevolent aspects of our respective heritages, we are likely to repeat them. For instance, had Phyllis Schlafly the capacity in her skull to absorb anything about the relationship between history and catharsis, she might modify her attempt to blanche the culture by constantly petitioning for culturally-restrictive textbooks in public schools. And these devices are not restricted to religious thought. Look at our benevolent drug war, and then think that at least some of the "honest consciences" behind it are secretly smiling at the allegedly unintended result of permanently disenfranchising (directly, as in voting rights) 40% of black males in seven states. Mind you, the mistake made in that allegedly benevolent drug war was, in this case, the direct differentiation between two identical compounds, and which was sold in black neighborhoods as opposed to white. In the United States we pay attention to our triumphs: the Revolution, the Civil War, the Louisiana Purchase, Westward Expansion, &c. ... All the while disregarding the negative aspects of those triumphs: that the Liberty won did not include all; that the African slaves were emancipated as a political move to destabilize the southern economy with absolutely no foresight regarding how to empower that large a section of the culture; that the Purchase trashed the Constitution; that expansion came at the willful murder of 95% of the indigenous population as well as the imprisonment of the remainder.

    Do you see what I'm getting at? We never answered the vital American questions "then". We still have not, as evidenced by various conditions existing.

    Applied to faith: You're arguing a tenuous argument in Satan. I agree with you that your faith is something you do not--and should not--take lightly. But I feel that you are taking it lightly when your best riposte is that your opponent is Satanic. There's a ton of wonderful philosophy from your own Christian heritage that I've seen you write off as Satanic; I urge you to read about the development of the Trinity; to read the philosophical justifications for the divinity of Christ, which apparently had to be established since it wasn't inherent; to apply history, sociology, psychology, and anthropology to the stories in an attempt to bring yourself closer to the characters in the tale. That you disagree with StarScream's sentiments (or mine or Moon's, or anyone's) is no problem in itself; that, as we know, is the purpose of this forum. I fully believe that much of what you've expressed as your moral center would remain intact were you to respect the heritage of Christian faith; furthermore, I think it would add dimensions to your arguments (say, a second and a third, but that's admittedly sardonic) that don't presently exist in a roll-call that is one name long: Satan. I also think that you might find some of these "Satanic" ideas to be well within a notion of reconciliation to your own faith.

    (Let me catch my breath ...)

    The Devil is an invention to disoblige God from answering questions about evil. Evil is necessary in the Universe insofar as there is no standard, then, against which to consider good. That is, would you know light if there was no shadow? Would you know dark if there was no light? Just as God pared dark from light, land from sea, life from lifelesness, so did God pare good from evil, and instilled it in a sense of childlike innocence, according to myth.

    The Devil must necessarily answer to God. Else one of two conditions arises: 1) That the Devil is not entirely within God's dominion (meaning God is not omniscient), or 2) that the Devil rules/exists in (circle one) regions not governed by God (meaning God is not omnipresent). I ask you this: What part of God's creation exists without God?

    Will the Devil be redeemed? If not, why did God create a Devil? Tell me what THE BIBLE says about that.

    If the Devil is not redeemed, then redemption is selective; as it is a sin to be without sin, that puts everybody on the trading block.

    If the Devil is redeemed, he is merely a stooge to divert attention from God.

    Furthermore: How dare we puny humans determine Good and Evil; what we attribute to Evil may well transcend our limited roles in the Universe. Things happen and are bad, but are not offensively evil because we can only measure our own perception of an event. Maybe it was Evil that Kennedy died; maybe it was Evil that MLK died. While I tend to think so, it might be that losing these people enabled our society to take a different, more beneficial evolutionary step, so that when the equation finishes, the martyrs will smile that it wasn't for nothing.

    I look at a friend, and would have said it was Evil if her father died in a car wreck before she was born. The flipside is that Daddy didn't die, and she suffered greatly because of him. To confuse that image a little more, without the damage, she would never have descended into the depths of herself and arisen with the ambition to save the world; without the damage, it would have been a while before I learned conscience in the purist form I regard it now; there's no telling how much damage I could have done. From the dead leaves will life arise anew. Tell the people my friend has helped that it's evil because its inspiration is evil. Evil, in this sense, only exists if our primary focus is ourselves in the immediate moment. (As a side note: When I'm wandering the desert, I'll worry about myself in the moment; in the meantime, I live in a culture where such a protective stance is not, in my opinion, necessary.)

    Of capitalization of "S" ... it's very simple. Imagine, for a moment, that you have a male child that you have named "Boy". Now, if Flash, say, says, "Look at that boy" (note the "b" in "boy"), she is describing a number of ideas, gender and age being the two primary. But if she says, "Look at that, Boy" she as addressing a person. That's the difference.

    I cite Chronicles 21.1, and refer you to the following link for commentary on just this particular issue. http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1chronicles/1chronicles21.htm

    I quote the page:

    The footnote:

    There is a difference between "a boy" and "Boy", if you've named your child such. There is a difference between "a satan" and "Satan".

    (and now we're back from station identification ....)

    The things we, as humans, choose to find evil are events that take place in the Universe. They are a direct result of the Will of God; they are necessary to the execution of that Will. "Satan" is, simply, a scapegoat. God, having perfect knowledge, could not have failed to forsee the rebellion, be it "Satan" or any other angel who would step up to the task. God knew damn well when he created the angels that "Satan's" behavior would necessarily occur. Some Catholic theologian or another (it's in that Burton book somewhere) described Satan as having his hands and feet bound, and God having pitched him out into the ocean with the explicit command to not get wet. The Muslim account is wonderfully compelling: Al-lah had commanded the angels to prostrate themselves only before His Own Almighty Countenance, and this seemed well enough; Satan's biggest crime in this tale comes from hesitating when ordered to bow before the first Man. His instructions were in conflict, and he happened to take too long to figure it out. Satan is only necessary so that we don't "blame" God for the evils we suffer.

    Enlighten me.

    Otherwise, I would ask you then, how often your fixed versions of right and wrong create unintentional opposites?

    It's actually very simple: The word negro refers to dark colors--usually black--in various languages. It's a word. But in the United States, the word carries additional weight: malintent, disdain, sentiments of inequality.

    Tell me how you love Satan, else I'm left thinking you're insulting Starscream when you attribute his thoughts to that which you disdain, and deem inferior (i.e. "Satan").

    After all, it's not particularly apparent that you approve of, agree with, or are endeared to StarScream's philosophies.

    Yes. You demonstrate that you do not understand ideas disparate from your own canon. You show remarkable depth when working with fellow Christians who share a certain number of prerequisite faith assumptions, but in the long run, you're awful willing to whip out Satan instead of demonstrating all the stuff you "read up on, OK?"

    As this is how God wants it ... why? Oh, that's right ... We Don't Ask That. I mean, what's up with the lemmings? I mean, "Satan" had no choice; in order for the Universe to function properly, as such, God wanted "Satan" as an operating part of it. God directly wills "Satan" any authority "Satan" has in the Universe. "Satan" is a front man, someone to wrestle with as an excuse to not actually address the issues at hand.

    Hey-hey ... it's the Jesus I know.

    He's been lifted as the light of joy in the Universe, though the Jesus I know is well aware that he's not the whole of that Joy.

    If your Jesus is morose, maybe that's what you ask of him?

    Actually, I'm accusing you of inventing your theology and cosmology to suit your own fancy.

    I'm accusing you of being arbitrary.

    Sorry about that, but I just can't help it.

    Okay, this is long enough. I'll get back to the other part of it later.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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    [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 06, 2000).]
     
  14. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    Lori,

    "It's not personal...I'm not trying to make it that way. I like you...but I don't like them, and I don't like what they're doing to you. Can that be ok with you?"

    Okay, not personal...I can accept that. But when you say you don't like what they're doing to me, can you be more specific? Can you tell me ONE THING they've done that you don't like?

    Please don't forget, it was the Goddess that told me to lay off criticizing Jesus and Christianity, that it is "just as right" as my own beliefs. You and I never did get that ironed out whether that was "demonic" behaviour or not, did we? Why on earth would a satan-spawned demon try to bring me closer to loving and understanding Jesus when I was already so far away from even acknowledging Jesus's reality?? It doesn't make sense if She's some kind of demon, does it?

    "To say that there is no good or evil, no right or wrong, and that everything is relative, goes directly against the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ. There is just no way around that without the use of some very dark rose colored glasses"

    Okay, Lori, but to borrow your own phrase from just above this portion of your post: "Remember, that's YOUR religion, not mine." I don't need to reconcile my beliefs with Jesus's teachings - my cosmic classroom is around the corner, I don't care what Jesus's grading curve looks like, I'm not taking his course, catch my meaning?

    "Let me ask you this, because it seems contradictory to me but...How can harm be done, if there is no evil or wrong? What is the definition of harm, if there is no right or wrong?"

    Hm, didn't we just go over this somewhere else? I don't have time just now, but if you can find where that is...I can't at the moment. Will come back to it presently.
     
  15. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,882
    I thought I'd chime in about the homophobe link I posted. That one generated some serious considerations.

    Let me, then, confess that among the sinister considerations of the link's posting, the only one I'll admit to is that I knew darn well how far inside I was throwing. Brushbacks are a compelling tool, often with volatile results.

    But I would like to tip my hat to Searcher, who was able to read through rhetoric which I now find to be poor compared to my goal:

    I mean, that's it, essentially, on one hand. To the other is the more elusive accusation that to dismiss someone's ideas as warped, misconstrued, bullshit pipe-dreams inspired by Satan is the primary method of those undereducated, less-than-representative "Christians" out there who insist that A) the Bible is to be read literally, and B) their individual interpretation of the Bible is the definitive, literal meaning. Such sentiments lead to the bad situations about which you and I argue so loudly. I wouldn't accuse you of seeing Jesus the same way that Torquemada did, but those two conditions are among the justifications that allowed this individual to perform his murderous, sacred duty under God's commission. Those two conditions are the reason why Lon Mabon is up and befouling the Spirit of Oregon. Those conditions are why idiots like that preacher can sell books about putting gays to death.

    Now, in context to the posts in question, at the time, we see your declaration that StarScream is foisting a bullshit, warped pipe-dream, and the all-conclusive declaration that StarScream is of Satan's legions.

    So I'll take the exemplary notions out and repost the quote and the questions:

    Italic portion: What individual doesn't wrestle with issues that amount to taking the "pretty" part over the "ugly" part? (I remind you of Ned Flanders' lament in the "Hurricane Ned" episode of The Simpsons: "I've done all the stuff it says in the Bible, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!" Has Lon Mabon, for example, chosen the pretty part over the ugly part (as he sees it) when he uses his belief in Jesus to construct combinations of text from Leviticus and from St Paul to demonstrate that Jesus said he didn't like buggery?)

    Bold portion: According to what?

    Oh ... I forgot about that part of your 8/6 post to Searcher:

    So, according to Lori ... check. According to faith ... check. Now, according to Jesus, is that based solely on how you read Jesus' words? Hmm ... according to the Bible ... same note: is that based solely on how you read the Bible?

    So, according to One Person, One Book, One Alleged Savior in the One Book, and according to Faith ... I'm sorry, but that sounds mighty subjective to me.

    Okay, and now I'm going to return to a portion of your Section #7, from 8/5:

    Simply: it is merely your opinion that these people are "deceived" by Satan. Again, I remind that I have yet to see any sense of a Universe where the Devil is not either arbitrary or a scapegoat.

    That Satan exists, and has so much power that neither jesus nor god can stop Him, is your own faith.

    And I wanted to address this portion of the tantrum, from your earlier 8/6 post to Searcher:

    But Lori, these are individuals, just like you. Unfortunately, they may be exactly as correct as you; largely, we hope that such idiots as the GodHatesFags, or the OCA, or the Schlaflys or 700-Clubbers of the world are not correct, but we don't get to know until after we're dead, right?

    But I hinted at this in another topic somewhere: How do you know that the Jesus you elevate as Redeemer is the same as, say, that dude from the World Church? When you walk through, say, the Clark County Fairgrounds at the annual Jesus Fair, and wave and say "Praise Jesus" or any affirmation of faith, really, are you acknowledging the same Jesus? What about the neo-Nazi who really does believe that Jesus entitles him to crack Jewish skulls? What about the gang-banger with the crucifix tattoo who fears no evil, though he blew away a fifteen year-old in a drive-by last week? What about that snobby post-Victorian wench who wants to see you burn in hell for this or that offense? Are you all worshipping the same Jesus? Think about it: Joe the Christian Nazi believes he can wallop on Jewish people because they're of the Devil (a sentiment that has existed among Christianity since at least 200 CE)? The Jesus that Joe knows likes it when Joe kicks the crap out of a sniveling little kike. Sound like Jesus?

    The insanity is, truly, Christianity. The sum effect of millions of Christians acting throughout Western culture is chaotic, and there is no convention about propriety. These individual Christians seem to bear a voters' sentiment of: What good does my single will do? Well, think microcosmically: maybe your assertion to your brother in law (for this example, Joe the Christian Nazi) that his faith is wrong and violates Jesus' will might eventually tame his racist bent, and not only will you have cured the world of one more idiot, you're helping ensure that he doesn't raise your beautiful nephew to be a horrible, hateful racist. You've affected the entire future based on that.

    Now, what, then, is so hard about applying that idea more broadly? Great, you don't want to sign Mr Mabon's hateful petition. So you avert your eyes and try not to think about it. Consider what happens, though, when one of these self-absorbed individuals comes out of his or her shell, rails at the signature-collector, and those several "Christians" inbound to sign the petition decide not to because they have a few considerations to make about Jesus' will?

    Is it, then, that for every one Christian, per se, who is a "bad seed" in their philosophy, there's a hundred thousand individual "good" Christians who don't care?

    It's all well and fine to want a better society, but enough individual "Christians" thinking of their own selves instead of their God have, for centuries, wrought disaster on Western culture. Now, you're not responsible for the firebombings of Brian Moch and Hattie Cohen (by Joe the Anonymous Christian Nazi, in 1992), and nor is Tony or even our friend Pashley. (I'm quite sure it wasn't Flash ....) But the fact remains that Mabon's politics have inspired Christians to murder. Apparently, though, looking at that connection is regarded (by Oregon Christians) as largely -ist.

    What, then, are we to think? That Christians are too concerned about their own individual issues to give serious consideration to larger issues? There were (how many?) ATF agents in Waco that day who thought they were doing their job. I applaud them for that, but the fact remains that the event was a miserable disaster that may or may not have scorched the Constitution. Is it Anti-American to decry the death that happened there? (Don't get me wrong, I think Koresh was, uh ... less than acceptable ... but due process is more important to me than bloodlust.)

    So we see individuals concerned about various social ills, and contributing their labor and finances to charitable relief, yet never considering that their good Christian neighbors might accidentally be the cause of the problem, but largely because it's Anti-Christian to think that way.

    There are places in this country where how a person regards God was initially affected by races between, for example, Baptists and Methodists to construct churches in slum-district apartment buildings, thus exempting the buildings from property taxes. Gee, what happens if little Jimmy's building had gotten a Methodist church instead of a Baptist church?

    What, for instance, does the Northern Irish conflict have to do with God, anymore? These are all individual sinners, imperfect humans, indeed. But the best options their faith is giving them is continued trademark imperfection. What was Christian about apartheid? Yet how many individual Christians cowered beneath the threat of losing luxury and thus did not decry the injustice they themselves were sponsoring .... oh, I get it.

    See, Lori ... I may not get along the best with Christianity, per se, but I wish the faithful the best because it's all of our world, and I really don't mind the difficulties of being a human being in the year 2000, but it is particularly annoying, as well as disruptive to my community, to watch so many good, individual Christians do unintentional damage simply because it's not nice to talk about Christians that way.

    Christianity, as a philosophy, exists. But I'm prone to saying that no Christians have walked since they walked next to him. But so much of it seems arbitrary, and God will never be definitive. Certes, the words are there, but since we're all individuals, and since we're all prone to reading things differently, what is the best way to determine what exactly God meant when he gave this story over to the people?

    It's tough, I know. But, for the record, it's one of the reasons I carry no specific faith; I can't see enough of the picture as long as I do.

    thanx, I've been at it too long this afternoon,
    Tiassa

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    We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)

    [This message has been edited by tiassa (edited August 07, 2000).]
     
  16. Infinity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    127
    Mooncat,

    Are you a witch? Can you cast spells on people?
     
  17. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    Infinity,

    Yes, and yes.
     
  18. Lori Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,065
    Hi Tiassa,

    Sorry I've been putting you off. And sorry I can't quote cause I can't remember how to flippin' cut and paste using Satan's latest version of aol. So here goes...

    To your first point, which is comparing the fact that I think that people who are visited by spirit beings and are shown a belief (supposed truth) which denies the most very foundational message of the Bible and of Jesus Christ, while perpetuating only the "easy and obvious" parts, those which are basically uncontendable (is that a word?), to absolute idiots who take the Bible "literally" as you say, and monger hate in response....I say there is no comparison. First of all, the message that Jesus Christ is the Son of God is NOT some literal, half-ass interpretation, that some idiot came up with, without giving it any thought. There is NO possible "misinterpretation" of that message, ok? Unless you're a total moron, you can't understand anything about Christianity without understanding who Jesus is. And there is not one place, not one single scripture in the whole Bible, that someone could read, and possibly come to the conclusion that Jesus was just some great guy the same as any one of us, and that yes, boys and girls, one day you can be just like Him. It's just not there. It contradicts the entire foundation of the Bible. And not some "literal" foundation. The most important interpretive foundational message of the Bible is that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God. Anyone who really learns about the Bible, and reads it, and studies it, and prays, and who tries to understand the most basic, foundational messages in it, and doesn't "get" that Jesus is the Christ, the Saviour, the Son of God, just has to be retarded. I'm sorry, but it's true. If you miss THAT point, you need help...it's just not possible. The idea that Starscream is speaking of obliterates the entire Christian faith. And I guess I'm not surprised that those who do not understand Christianity, don't understand how that's true, but believe me, it's true. See, if I were to honestly believe that, that Jesus is our "brother" as Starscream put it, then knowing what I know about the most foundational messages of the Bible, and knowing what I know about the most basic and foundational teachings and practices of the faith, then I would have to argue that the entire Bible is a bunch of trumped up BS that was not to be trusted at all. If I believed what Starscream and pagans do about the identity of Jesus, then I, using my better judgement, would not believe ANYTHING that the Bible says...not even the pretty and fluffy parts. Ok, now on to the hate mongers...You are saying that my "literal" interpretation of the Bible that leads me to believe that Jesus is the Son of God (which I just argued as a ludicrous notion), is the same "literal" interpretation that leads people to murder other people and hate other people? Are you SURE you want to argue that???? How? How can you argue that? Jesus, THE SON OF GOD, didn't ever advocate or teach, or talk about, any such thing. The foundational messages of the Bible are all about love, and humility, and forgiveness, and grace, and it teaches VERY CLEARLY that we are ALL sinners...we are ALL the same inside...which totally obliterates the notion of one human judging another. I would have to argue Tiassa, that the same level of understanding of the faith, and the same source of "intention", or state of mind if you will, would be required to believe either contention, that Jesus is somehow not the Saviour, AND that Jesus somehow perpetuated hate and judgment amongst human beings. There are only two real obvious reasons why anyone would believe either such thing, that is either they don't understand the faith in it's most foundational and basic sense, and/or they're pretty stupid. I mean, you say that this hate monger mentality, this holier than thou judgmentalism, is a justifiable, rational, logical interpretation of the Bible, just like the notion that Jesus is not the Son of God is a justifiable, rational, logical interpretation of the Bible, right? By doing that, you're giving credibility to the hate mongers interpretation. Are you trying to argue that we can't all use a little common sense and understanding and thought when interpreting a sacred writing? I think that's BS, I'm sorry. You know as well as I do that everyone's interpretation of things in this world are not equally significant or correct or even logical. It's like you're trying to pretend that there exist no stupid, egotistical, selfish, hateful, lazy, spoon fed, brain washed people in this world, and I happen to know you're wrong about that, and so do you. I'd bet my IQ is higher than the combined IQ's of an entire "God Hates Fags" picket line...what do you think? You know Tiassa, you're so obviously intelligent, and well read, and very good at interpreting literature. So what's your problem when it comes to the Bible? Mental block? It's just not as difficult to understand as all that. Listen, I don't think that any human being knows the truth, or even a big slice of it, Christian or not. I don't think that any human can possible get all of the truth there is to get out of the Bible, or even straight from the Holy Spirit itself, in the course of a life time, or two, or three, or who knows how many? But that doesn't mean that you can't get any truth out of it, or that there is no truth in it, or that it's all just open to whatever illogical, irrational, contradictory interpretation one care's to associate with it. Can't we use some common sense? Can't we use our brains? Can't we look around us, at our history, as you're always suggesting, at our lives, our planet, our reality, our pain, our suffering, our love, our joy, AND THEN look for meaning in the Bible? I swear to you, that if you do that, you WILL find truth, and you WILL find meaning, and you WILL understand that Jesus IS the Son of God, AND that God does in no way shape or form hate anyone, including fags.

    And excuse me, but where are you getting this "Starscream is one of Satan's legions" crapola? Would ya listen to me for once already?? Just because I happen to think that Starscreams BELIEFS are taught and perpetuated by demonic spirits, DOES NOT MEAN that I think Starscream is a demonic spirit, or demonic in any way...or evil, or a bad person, or stupid, or anything bad at all. I think that Starscream is probably as good hearted of a person as me or anyone else, and probably just as smart too. Like I said man, they don't pull out the laser light show for just any old moron...any old moron is easily taken down by some "God hates fags" campaign, get it??? I think that Starscream is being deceived, that's it. And I think that for anyone to argue that it's not a very good possibility is being naive at best.

    I'm sorry again...I can't finish right now...I got a JOB finally!!!! I'm going to be a waitress! A waitress!!! I haven't done that in 10 years, and I'm so psyched! Gotta go to work...later, tater.

    ------------------
    You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe.

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 14, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 14, 2000).]

    [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 14, 2000).]
     
  19. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    37,882
    Lori--

    Now ... AOL is something that I will attribute to Satan. Also Rupert Murdoch, the GOP, Charlton Heston, and MLB commish Bud Selig.

    Our local City Attorney, one Mark Sidran, might well be the Devil himself.

    thanx,
    Tiassa

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  20. ilgwamh Fallen Angel Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    317
    I didn't read many of the posts in here. I read a lot in the beginning and skimmed through the rest as it appeared to be bickering and fighting. You can correct me if I am wrong though. With that being said, excuse me if I bring up material already discussed

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    I just wanted to post a link to a page about the trinit. This is an article I wrote and that is on my webpage. I would have just posted the text here but its all colorized and stuff so it would have been yucky.
    www.angelfire.com/co/JesusFreak/trinity.htm

    It shows tht according to jesus and the Bible he was in fact God. So it appears that we have 3 things (the old trilemna pops up again

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    ) that we may label him: a liar, a lunatic, or Lord.

    Peace,
    Vinnie
     
  21. Infinity Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    127
    Mooncat


    Can you teach me how?
     
  22. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    Infinity,

    Yes, I probably could. But no, I probably won't. Before you ask why, answer these:

    Why do you want to learn that?

    Are you willing to be 100% responsible for your actions?
     
  23. MoonCat Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    400
    Vinnie,

    I visited your page, but all the text is laid on top of eachother. My browser? Your page?? Dunno, but can't read it.

    I did catch you were talking about the trinity however. Here's a site I've posted a couple of times that nobody seems to want to look at. It's co-authored by a Jewish Rabi and basically states that the trinity is an invention added later on.

    I'm interested to hear what you think of it. I don't have much vested interest in it, being neither Christian nor Jew, but I find it an interesting twist in a common myth...

    <a href="www.geocities.com/Metzad/Notstmnt.htm">clicky, clicky</a>
     

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