internal server error fjojoibgfjibdvgjondsbvgoisvgoin djkgfdoiavgf adbvgfdibk rbrf Sorry. Needed to vent Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Just lost my loooooong post on those tough to understand trinity verses. I'll be back tomorrow to try again as I do not have the will power to redo it right now. Sorry... *wonders why he didn't right click and press select all and copy it before he pressed submit* Peace, idoit boy
Oh my goodness!!!!! My post is there!!!! Wohoo!!!!! You see, thats irrefutable proof that God exists Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Peace, Happy Poster
Infernity, "Moonpie, How do you know it works if you've never done it?" Re-read my post. I don't think you're paying attention.
Vinnie, Kinda funny, when I first glanced at this "Peace, Happy Poster" I thought you called yourself "Harry Potter", LOL! A friend of mine lended me the first book last weekend, not bad for a kid's book. Nothing accurate to REAL witchcraft of course, but a fun read anyway. Amazing how many kids dig that stuff, huh? Blessings ~MC
Searcher, Glad you dig the website! It was posted on the message board my circle-mates set up, some stranger stumbled across it apparently and left a message about Jewish faith being the One True Path, yadda yadda yadda, but I followed the link anyway and found it rather interesting. I have no real emotional investment in either the Christian or Jewish "truth", so it's just interesting to me, but I thought people out here might get a bit more out of it. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I have another fun website, gonna start a new topic for it though. It's fun, not very serious. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Dag! Ok, Tiassa, you wind bag, I'm going to try to cover this in one night, for crying out loud... * Basic fundamental teachings of the faith... did it ever occur to you to actually read the Bible for yourself? Go ahead and put that noggin' to work on something meaty for a change would ya? Ok, here are some that are relevant to this conversation, geez... Jesus=Christ=Saviour of all humanity All human beings are sinners, whether they like it or not, or whether they're saved or not, or whether they admit it or not, and there's just nothing you can do about that. There is no sin that is greater than any other sin, for all sin lies in intent rather than circumstance. And if there were to be a greater sin than any other, human beings would be the last to know what that particular sin might be. Therefore, there is no human being alive who may judge another human being, or hate another human being, and found these intentions and assumptions in the Christian faith, because the Christian faith teaches the EXACT OPPOSTITE OF THAT!!!!! * Which logic leads to understanding? Which logic? What the is that supposed to mean? I mean the logic that says, if you're going to believe, then believe it all, not just the parts you think are pretty. I'm talking about mathematical type, scientific type, proof type logic. Like if a=b and b=c, then a=c type shit...What kind of logic are you referring to exactly? * What does a personal relationship with Jesus look like? It looks like a person getting to a place in their life when they have been humbled. I think that a lot of times it has to do with moral paradoxes of sorts. It has to do with sin, and the rationalization of it, and the denial of God. Some people are miserable their whole lives, and never get it...some people only have to be miserable for some of it...spiritual IQ I guess...it's all about a decision to really want to learn what a mistake is and why and how to learn from it. Sometimes when I pray, I can hear Him in my head, and he sounds like me, like His voice does, but it's not me. He doesn't say what I think. He usually says the last thing that I would think. Sometimes He just places ideas on me. He teaches me how to be happy. He teaches me what is right and wrong about me. And sometimes He does it in the trippiest ways. It's like all of a sudden, when you "get religion", you realize that everything happens for a reason. And you realize that you are the only one responsible for your own peace. He makes me analyze my intentions about everything. And if I don't understand something, then he helps me, tremendously. It's like having a father, and a best friend, and psychologist all in one. There, that's a start anyway...why don't you find out for yourself? Lazy? * Led to do what by the Holy Spirit? Be a witness. Do you know what that means? See previous paragraph for a clue. Hint...it has nothing to do with judging others, or preaching to others, or condemning or hating others...It doesn't have anything to do with anything but you and Jesus, and what He does THROUGH you. * Tiassa, everything is NOT subjective. * Yea, the hate-mongers believe that they're led by the Holy Spirit to hate, and they're not. What is the problemo with the understanding here dude? They heard about the Holy Spirit in church, some PERSON told them to hate fags, and all of a sudden the Holy Spirit leads people to hate fags. Tiassa, get a grip. You come off sounding like the most gullable idiot making this arguement, I'm sorry. But here man...the Holy Spirit exists, and it influences people all the time. You'll be able to tell when it's influence on this earth is gone after the rapture. But just because some spoon fed power trippin illiterate CLAIMS that the Holy Spirit told him to hate someone doesn't make it so. What is your mental block? *So the hate mongers and the "Jesus is our brother" guys can pull the pretty stuff out of the Bible, and ignore the rest just like me, huh? Well, guess what Tiassa? I don't do that! And lots of other people don't either. Why? Oh, because it's ILLOGICAL to do, that's why. OOhhhhhhh, yes, here it is...and Jesus ALLOWS this ridiculous conduct, huh? Well what do you suggest, striking these people down with a lightning bolt? How about a world wide flood? How about God's wrath as described in Revelations? Is that good enough for you? Oh yea, that's right, you have a problem with that "judgement and wrath" stuff too huh? What you're complaining about is called free will...and I would bet a million you'd be the first one to scream injustice if it were taken away. Make up your mind. And don't blame Jesus just cause you're lazy or in denial or whatever enough to believe the hate-mongers. That's your fault, not His. * Jesus created the law. The Word is proclaimed from Him. * The reason why everyone knows some truth but not all of it, or differents parts of it, or understands it but doesn't apply it, or doesn't understand it, is because it's all about a personal relationship with Jesus, and if you don't have it, I don't care how many times you go to church, or how many times you claim to, you're not going to learn shit. And if you do have a relationship with Him, then He will show you what you need to know to be happy, and to find peace, and to have faith, and that is all derived from the same truth and the same law, but everyone is more hurt in a different way. Everyone has their own path with Him. Everyone has different shit to deal with, and different lessons to learn. Actually, they're the same lessons, just taught different ways, depending upon our own free will. Yea, that's how it is. See, that's what you don't get about it Tiassa. That's why you keep looking for some person, or group, or book. You're going to have to go straight to Him if you ever want to know. Sorry, it says that right in the Bible...of course. * How do I love Satan? What are you referring to? I love him as one of God's creations. I love him as God loves him. Other than that, I rebuke him in my life. Everything he tempts me with leads me to misery and pain. I love nothing that he does or stands for. I do not enjoy being tempted to sin. * Since when have I claimed to uphold the "perfect" or best level of understanding? And you're dissing me cause I watch TV? What is your problem? Oh right, you're going to act like I blindly take everything any one of them says as God's truth right? Like I don't use my own PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS to find meaning in the word and interpretation that I hear? Like I don't have a brain right? Do you understand, you know, after a year or so, why it is that I don't actually get my shoes and socks on and go to church? They're not all good, they're not all bad, but there's learning to be had, if you only have a brain, and a spirit-filled heart. * As for Joe, if his intentions in serving his country in the military are pure, and he has faith in the intentions of his country, then Joe happens to be trying to do the right thing. I don't think that people should kill one another do you? I'd bet that Joe doesn't either. What about to defend innocents? What about to defend against malintent? The military is theoretically supposed to defend right? What if no one died to stop Hitler? Tiassa, stop looking for a handbook. Stop looking for an act...a rule...a civil law...a political agenda. It's about what's in your heart, and where it comes from...it's about your intentions and your perspective, and your love of God, and a personal relationship with Jesus. If Joe abuses his children, then Joe, hello, is abusing his children. And if Joe is inflicting physical pain upon a child, then Joe needs to start looking to Jesus to analyze his intentions for him. Joe should realize that it isn't necessary to abuse a child to teach a child. And Joe can punish his kids however he sees fit, but it is Joe's AWESOME God-given responsibility to figure out what is BEST FOR HIS KIDS. And to do that, Joe's going to have to do a hell of a lot more soul-searching than the Bible thumping that you're suggesting Tiassa. * And just so I have it clear...You want a political agenda, right? You want a "Christian utopia" right? You want to have faith in people, and in human law, and in "culture", and in history, and in organizations, and in human leaders, and in books, right? Tiassa, get a clue dude. Christianity doesn't teach anything even close to that. It teaches to have faith in none of such things, but in Jesus Christ Himself, and in nothing else. That's what you refuse to get. Yes Tiassa, I'm saying that you actually have to talk to Him. Sorry, but that's how it's done. You won't ever get there otherwise. *shrug* * Alrighty then, will Satan be redeemed? Well, it says in the Bible that he will not be redeemed. The fact that he will not does not mean that God's love and forgiveness is not infinite. How can you forgive, when no one is sorry? Which leads us to assume that Satan will not repent. Same goes for us too you know? Free will. Would ya remember already? It's a choice, and Satan is making his, and we are making ours. If we are truly sorry, then we are forgiven. If we believe that God is gracious enough to forgive, then we are forgiven. * Does evil operate indendently from God? No. God created spiritual law, and the difference. Yea, there does have to be a dark to have a light. But just because a dark side exists, does not mean we have to choose it. Law is just that...a right and a wrong. A consequence to an action. And yea, God created the universe, so he created all of the possible consequences to given actions...which actually have to do more with intent. We'll say to correct, consequences of intentions. Does God control evil? Yea, God controls everything. You know what Tiassa? For as much sorrow and pain that I've felt in my life, and as many hard lessons that I've had to learn, and as many shitty, cold, and heartless intentions that I've had to witness in this world, and as much sin as I have committed in my denial of God, I am thankful. I am truly thankful for my pain, for it is through it, and no other way, that I would ever learn a damn thing. See, that's how us honest people get that there's a difference between good and evil. And that there is definately such a thing as sin...and it's wages are definately pain, suffering, and death. No question about it. * Do angels learn? Ugh, I'm tired. I don't know! I do know thought that some things you said aren't right according to the Bible. Angels don't know all of what God knows, or the "divine plan" necessarily. The angels are messengers, but that doesn't mean they know the whole story. I'm sure that they know the difference between good and evil just like we do, and they make a choice. The angels don't know when Christ will return. Satan could repent if he wanted to. He doesn't want to, that's the whole point. And yea, God knew all along that he wouldn't. Thereby giving us knowledge of good and evil and free will to choose. * Also, the universe does not "need" evil to be in balance. Sin=death. Get it? Just because a "right" intent exists, does not mean that a "wrong" intent must be perpetuated. Oh, that must be "your" particular "type" of logic you're working there. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Evil destroys the universe, and good perpetuates the balance and peace and life and love. *Would Jesus want me encouraging change? Only as a witness. Can I get a witness?! I will defend, and I will love, and I will forgive, and I will give, but only because of Him. * And excuse me but..."a direct result of the MISapplication of Christianity throughout it's history". * Tiassa, God doesn't hate fags...THE PEOPLE DO! They don't feel the same "warmth" as I do!!!!! They aren't feeling the "warmth" of Jesus' love in their hearts while they're HATING fags, and if you believe that, then I'm sorry, but you're ignorant. If you knew Jesus, you wouldn't be so damned confused. The fact is that you have no flippin' idea what the "warmth" feels like, and that's why you don't understand. Those people feel hatred, and judgement, and pride, and fear. And NONE of that comes from Jesus. NONE of it. What you're saying is that what anyone chooses to believe about God actually determines who He really is, and that's illogical pagan bullshit, excuse me. God is who He is, whether you know it, or understand it, or believe it, or even like it. The ONLY way to know who He is is to know Him...not THINK you know Him, or SAY you know Him, or TRY to know Him, or READ about Him, or TALK about Him, or even believe in His existence. To know Him, you have to actually take the flippin' time and effort to know HIM. Now there's some logic for ya! And I'm going to bed. Nighty-night! ------------------ You may think I'm a nut, but I'm fastened to the strongest bolt in the universe. [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Lori (edited August 21, 2000).]
Lori-- So two billion people proclaiming an equal number of interpretations of Christ, likewise considering themselves in propriety of faith, is somehow my fault? I mean, the Devil, the Witches, the Communists, the Humanists, the Atheists ... I know some Christians like to place blame--and that's a human thing, so it's not like it's entirely objectionable--but isn't that a little overboard? How many times have I questioned the underlying paradigm of Christian faith, and how many times have you told me I cannot do that? I can't apply a comparison of the paradigm because these are individuals to whom I am referring? Now you would propose that I change that rule you've advocated merely because it allows the legitimization of something you disagree with? I think there's something wrong with the theology of a God Hates Fags group. Of that, we have little doubt about either you or I. But if I think there's something wrong with, say, your theology, or Tony's, or Flash's ... is it not fair, then, to document that and note that it's not necessarily "Christian", per se? Okay, I'm now pitching inside. Duck; I'm not trying to bean you here, just push you off the plate a little. But it seems to me you've expressed your discontent with certain Pauline passages, involving wives and husbands. On the one hand, I do not stand with a stone marked with "hypocrisy" and shout, "I accuse". But it does provide a moment of reflection on the subtlety of our perceptions. Don't get me wrong, I disagree with modern interpretations of "Wives, submit to your husbands", and other such ideas. A softer way of looking at it might be simply whether there is a uniform interpretation of things (for the individual), or if people subject their literal interpretations to situational considerations. A blatant example to wit: * "Spare the rod, spoil the child." I've seen two basic executions of this principle. Far and away, the most common, is the tyrannical parent who punishes a child for any report of wrongdoing. Less common is the idea that the parent finds out whether the report of mischief is true, and proceeds from there. In that latter mode, sparing the rod might also become dependent on the degree of guilt, the severity of wrongdoing, and the intent of the guilty party. I believe you're responding to the following: First, if that's not what you're responding to, let me know. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Now ... all I'm after with that is that yes, you're into televangelists. But how many morons do you have to weed through? Dave Roever with his constant, militant battle cry against music and art? The death-penalty-for-gays guy? Old Missouri preachers who threaten in their broadcasts to shoot people? The PTL woman with worse makeup than Tammy Faye? What about the congregations? Hopping and praising and donating money beside wheelchair-bound faithful who just aren't faithful enough to be healed while the preacher faith-heals fat woman after fat woman with headaches, backaches, and stomach troubles? Given the diverse interpretations expressed by the preachers, and the number of people who support those whom even you would have occasion to consider ... well, wrong, I guess ... does it not sometimes give the appearance of an anarchic interpretation--that once you agree that Jesus is Lord and Savior that you can go forth with whatever oddball ideas you choose to take from the Bible? Okay ... I'm trying to keep the mischievious grin off my face, but this one landed on me quite unexpectedly: The accented phrases above imply or outright describe limitations to God's forgiveness. What part of the word infinite is unclear? And this ... I thought we got the knowledge of good and evil from a fruit tree. Silly me ... since it was in the Bible, I figured it might be relevant. So you're referring to the proofs that only work when you write all the assumptions down in brackets at the beginning? Yes, Lori, I do. Now ... do you? Led by the Holy Spirit to Witness truth or falsehood? Be specific here. Or is Witnessing Christ it's own set of behaviors with its own regard for truth? Might I, then, observe that what you're saying is that Christians all believe in Christ, though none of them can agree on what it means aside from various generalizations about Christ's status in the Universe, and furthermore have no obligation to look at the larger effects of their moral decisions because it's all about having a one-on-one with Jesus. That, my dear, is typical, trailer-park, craptacular illogic. Is there no community within the faith? Where is that spirit of brotherhood (sisterhood ... how about family?) that seems so darned implicit in Christ's words? It's not as present, I would theorize, because it's difficult to accomplish without resorting to martial theologic law. I cut the quote short to deal with the relevant part. The response to that sentiment, though, is, Says you. There's plenty that people around Exosci say that generally sounds utterly unacceptable to me in the sense that God Hates Fags is unacceptable. Not necessarily the severity, as we generally don't see that kind of zeal, but what I'm after has to do with the fact that you're assuming that your take on God is correct. You and I both know that it's not the way GHF says it is, but that's how I feel about the majority of what I see in Christianity. The people might have their personal relationships with Jesus, but those positive relationships manifest themselves in negative ways. It seems we're all individuals, but only a few of us are right? Again, I would point out, then, that Christianity is an exceedingly poor method of delivering God's instructions. Look, it doesn't have to be God Hates Fags. That kind of stuff I find as mind-numbingly stupid as the episode I've described in several posts in which my Missouri-Synod aunt kicked her daughter out of the house over a movie. It reminds me of the mind-numbingly stupid preacher who, upon having his show interrupted by a protester for something (the audience never did find out what), said, "Just shoot the little bastard; here, I've got my pistol right here ...." But these people think they feel the warmth. Period. Which made a nice lead-in for this. Okay .... to know ... not to think, say, try, read about, talk about, or believe in .... I know you accused me of looking for a handbook, and that's almost it's own issue. For the record, I feel about as frustrated over your inability to connect the personal relationship to the greater community of Christians as you have expressed over my inability to simply shrug and write evil up to the Devil. However ... I'm gonna ask for a handbook. Could you please enlighten this stone-dead soul to the difference--the practical difference--between actually knowing and the rest of the list which we might possibly agree constitutes a large portion of humanity's personal relationships with Jesus? In other words ... how do you know you know Jesus? How do you know you're not acting out that list of false relationships? Now, that's not a question that needs an answer because what it's meant to do is to ask you to look at other people that way. Take our friend Lon Mabon, down in Oregon. He's got a personal relationship to Jesus. He doesn't think it, he doesn't "believe" it. As far as he's concerned, he knows Jesus, and Jesus compels him to persecute people. That is what I'm after here. That is what Christianity has never worked out about itself, and that's what modern Christians choose to ignore in any demonstrable, practical sense. Perhaps. In fact, I would agree to that, as it supports my notion that no Christians have walked since Christ. Two-thousand years of misapplication; Ignatius and Alexander, calling for solidarity of church communities; Barnabas, and the writer of Diognetus slandering the Jews, conceptually elevating Christianity to a higher moral position, demanding more rights than their neighbors. And ever since then, it hasn't stopped, has it? And the whole time, the proper Christians have done what? Sat back and watched? I agree that the tragedies of Christianity result from misapplication. What causes that? (There are better answers than "the Devil", though there are still ways to make this his fault.) Just because one or another influential American colonist felt it was morally unsound to teach African slaves to read did not mean it was the best idea to keep them illiterate. Yet it eventually became a part of living Christianity for a while. Check in with writers, historians, and philosophers ... the spectre of Puritanism which haunted Boston and inspired Hawthorne still walks the land. Perhaps the people aren't proclaiming lock, stock, and verse, but its effects have never ceased. Why is Puritanism important? Because it's not in the Bible, and it affects the way most, if not all Christians in the United States regard their God. Look around you today ... where is God's word misapplied? Are these things you can see easily? Excellent, now look harder because you're a human and you can. Anything else floating to the surface? And look again, and again, and again .... What happens, though, when you look in the mirror? I see. I hate to ask this ... but in the past you've implied that you participate in behaviors which may not be exactly Biblical. Now, I don't want to speculate much, and I cast no assertions of the morality, per se .... But, since you've hurrahed psilocybin before, and have, in the past referred to yourself as a "slut" ... okay, it seems sarcastic, but was there really nothing fun in those temptations? That's all I really wonder ... the behavior itself I think you'd find I either approve of or choose not to have an opinion of, so please understand, I could care less about it from that perspective. But c'mon, being tempted to sin can be a little fun, eh? I mean, I'll buy that sex and drugs aren't sinful ... but that would reinforce a good number of notions which I perceive to be opposite, or at least disparate from your own. About Joe the False Christian, and his intentions: As an ideal, what ever happened to striving toward harmony? But even I'm aware how starry-eyed that is. But to counterpoint your question, what of those who flat-out hold a CO toward killing? Are they evil because they will not support the war machine? I mean, sure each potential soldier must work these out for themselves. But the fact remains that at each fork of temptation, there is a right branch and a wrong branch. Is a man who sees the chance to kill his enemies honoring God? (I know it's general, but I'm pointing toward the positive generalizations of that phrase). Is a man who would rather raise his kids, come what may, and not kill anyone, honoring God? In that sense, I would invite you to be an American male, near your eighteenth birthday, and sitting in a classroom listening to George Bush invoke the "D" word. I guarantee you ... every young man I knew in that school took in a sharp breath and began wondering about killing his "enemies". I cannot begin to fathom what it must have been like to be brought to that actual choice, when a draft was instituted and little cards came around in the mail telling you in which order to sign up to kill and die. Tim O'Brien wrote a pretty good version of it in a short-story called (I think) On the Rainy River, but if there's anyone in reading distance who actually served as a conscripted soldier, perhaps we might ask if they would be so kind as to share a few thoughts on this .... As to Joe's looking to Jesus to analyze his intentions, what, then, if he reminds you (or I) that he already has? I'll stop here largely because I'm now left reading through your post in order to find more to address. I suppose that its initial impressions should be enough here. Oh, one last thing that I did see during this writing, but have thus far failed to address: A) I have talked to Him ... oh, that's right ... you don't believe me. B) I don't have a political agenda per se. Well, sure I've got an agenda, but I don't see why reconciling the hypocritical train wreck that is American Christianity, which plagues our Liberty, our Economy, our Privacy, and our Spirits should even be on an agenda. The way I figured it, these things should have been clear ... especially with the advantage of God. C) If I have faith in people, it's because it's a little more important. If I'm locked in a closet since birth (as has happened before; there's an infamous psych case-study about it) and live my whole life in primal darkness, tortured, malnourished, ad nauseum; or if I am born in the middle of a stupid war about God, and live my whole life in darkness, din, fear, and poverty: should I rejoice during my lifetime for the bounty of someone else's miseries? If I'm born in Bosnia, it's likely that the only reason I care whose religion wins the war will have something to do with where my next meal, or a warm shirt comes from. If I have faith in people, it's because we the people are the living manifestations of whatever god-concept put us here. I'm sorry that the results of God's work are so unimportant to you in this particular respect. But compared to the expressed ideal, I see little or no encouraging signs that the paradigm is working in any valid sense. The measurement of the philosophy--that is, its living execution--demonstrates that much of Christianity has fallen into disrepair and may actually be failing. It seems that this paranoid, violent culture we all decry is the result of its influence. Certainly, every religion runs that danger, but maybe that tells us something about the nature of religion and its resulting faith. thanx, Tiassa Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! ------------------ We are unutterably alone, essentially, especially in the things most intimate and important to us. (Ranier Maria Rilke)
