You see, this is why we Atheists have got a bad name....

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by Silas, Nov 26, 2004.

  1. Silas asimovbot Registered Senior Member

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    http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=6911883

    This is the story of the school which vetted every historical (or other) document that a teacher, who happened to be a Christian, showed to his pupils, and banned him from showing any documents which contained references to God.

    This, of course, included the Declaration of Independence.

    One is reminded of the West Wing episode where a school supervisor or inspector who happened to be the Chief of Staff's sister, actually arrested kids who had organised a prayer meeting on their own account, said arrests involving the people being handcuffed while kneeling on the floor. WW plots are frequently taken from life, so if that happened irl it's another example of the same kind of thing.

    In an authority in Britain, they are thinking of renaming all the schools so that they don't include the word "Saint" if they happened to be named after saints (British primary schools are specifically religiously sponsored, btw) - why? Because it might offend Muslims, Hindus, Jews etc.

    A sense of proportion needs to be exercised, and a lot more tolerance.

    Thoughts?
     
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  3. the preacher fur is loose 666 Registered Senior Member

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    silas: what go's around comes around, was'nt there a big problem when they brought "Darwins: origins of the species" into schools, was'nt there a court case then also,
    but there was no discrimination law then was there.

    quote:Steven Williams, a fifth-grade teacher at Stevens Creek School in the San Francisco Bay area suburb of Cupertino, sued for discrimination on Monday, claiming he had been singled out for censorship by principal Patricia Vidmar because he is a Christian.

    as we dont know how this man was introducing this information into the class, we should not make snap judgements.
    if Mr Williams was trying to say it was the truth, then all power to the Principal. if he was using it as another point of view, then the Principals wrong .
     
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  5. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It's rediculous censorship; however, there was nothing in the article that
    stated tbe banning was executed by an atheist. I don't think the article
    makes atheists look good or bad. I do think it makes the principal look like an
    idiot.
     
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  7. Persol I am the great and mighty Zo. Registered Senior Member

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    Atheists/theists are the problem... extermists of the two are.

    Most religious people understand that not everyone believes what they do, and don't try to force ideas to stagnate just because they contradict religious beliefs.

    Most atheists understand that the majority of people believe in God, and don't really care about 'in god we trust'.
     
  8. marv Just a dumb hillbilly... Registered Senior Member

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    I'm an atheist. I was raised in the Lutheran Church, but while doing some research in the Valparaiso University (Lutheran) library, I came across a book titled The Biography of the Gods. In the last paragraph of the last chapter, the author wrote, "For too long man has put off unto the gods those things that he should be doing for himself." That made sense, and for 49 years now, I've been an atheist. That was an epiphenomenal event for me.

    Having said all that, I respect the values that most religions have presented to our country and to the world. I echo Persol's comment. In fact, my wife is a "born again" Baptist, and next month we celebrate our twenty-fifth anniversary.

    What the school district has done in California, and another in Maryland, and I'm sure elsewhere, is simply wrong. I firmly believe that the Ten Commandments belong in every city hall and courthouse to remind politicians not to steal, and in every school classroom to remind children not to lie or cheat.

    Have documents relative to the founding of our country suddenly been thrown into the same bin with pornography? Regarding California, has the U.S. Constitution suddenly become unconstitutional?

    Where is this madness going?
     
  9. Starman Starman Registered Senior Member

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    This is the exception and not the rule. We should value Religion as history and refer to it as such. It is a part of our past and current events. Moderation would be defined as to allow acnowledgment of historical Religious events while attempts are made not to endorse any Religions in the future.
     
  10. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    What we're dealing with is simply intolerance masquerading itself under the guise of 'political correctness' and civil rights issues. "Freedom from" has become the mantra of the masses and they want to be protected from everything; from bad eggs, to bad health, from job loss, to exposure to disparate ideologies. The notion is, of course, absurd, juvenile, elitist, and ultimately futile. In short, they're assholes.

    May they burn with the books they would ultimately toss on the pyre.

    ~Raithere
     
  11. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    Wow. Very accurate description.
     
  12. SnakeLord snakeystew.com Valued Senior Member

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    I might be the only one here, but I disagree. At my daughters school they've been getting the children to stand up in assembly and say "Thank you god for looking after us". Of course, they're not made to stand up and thank their parents for looking after them, but instead feel it pertinent to try and force a belief into their heads. These kids are five years old, and I find it rather repulsive that methods such as these are employed to turn people into god believers.

    If a parent wants their child to grow up learning and believing these things, they can take them to church, synagogue or mosque. There's also 'Sunday school' for children born of religious parents.

    However, what about the rights of the rest of us, and mainly our children? My daughter has the absolute right to freedom of choice. When she is old enough, she can choose to believe in god, gods, aliens or not to believe any of them. I don't drum atheism into her head, and I will not have some school simpleton trying to drum religious belief into her head.

    I'm not American, so do not know what age '5th grader' applies to, but suffice it to say, a school is not a recruitment office.

    And who is asking too much? Here we have religious education classes, so can god and religion not be kept in that class, instead of trying to worm it's way into every other class?
     
  13. TheERK Registered Senior Member

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    These are two different things. Having money that blatantly espouses a particular set of religious beliefs doesn't make any sense. An 'extremest atheist' would be one who said money must say 'there is no God'. Wanting to have an obnoxious and untrue declaration--that we all trust God--removed from money is not extreme at all.

    Even many theists want the phrase removed, not only because it cheapens the concept of trusting God, but because many theists are equally rational and realize that such a statement is not appropriate to be printed on money.
     
  14. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    There is one thing we cannot do ourselves though. We cannot grant ourselves eternal life. But we can ask for it. This is kind of the point of the Christian faith, that we trust in God enough to give us what we ask. I cannot think of anything I need more than eternal life. In fact everything I have and everything I do depends on that one wish being granted me by He who I call the Maker of the heavens and the earth.

    All kids will lie and all kids will cheat at some point. How will you restore them when they break these commandments? If there is no eternal life, why should anyone follow any commandment written down? Why not just go all out to lie and steal and cheat your way to the top? Surely it is better to teach our kids that survival by whatever means is what gets you to the top if there is no real judgement at the end of the day?

    peace

    c20
     
  15. Dr Lou Natic Unnecessary Surgeon Registered Senior Member

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    You and every theist. That is why religion was made up, because animals naturally have an aversion to death, and humans were creative enough to fantasise about never dieing.
    From this foundation religion was built.
    A common theme of religion is sacrifice. This is due to the "trader" instinct and work ethic in humans. It wouldn't feel right to fantasise about just getting an eternal life for nothing, it wouldn't feel realistic. Similarly I'm more likely to fantasise about the girl down the road rather than beyonce knowles.
    So most religions have a "we're not worthy" feel to them, and a code of conduct which entails sacrifice. It felt like the most likely way to recieve such an awesome reward as living forever would be to give away the joys of life, surely such a sacrifice has to be rewarded?
    Well no, because you're making a deal with something that doesn't exist. You're throwing a wish harbouring penny into a fountain which you attributed with supernatural powers purely because "it would be great if it had them". But in reality it's just a concrete basin filled with h20 and bird shit.
    It's going to take your penny, coldly and unapologetically. It might even go so far as to breed mosquitoes which will give you malaria, it doesn't care.

    Atheists have a bad name purely because they spoil the fantasy with an ultimately reasonable and realistic stance. This really bothers theists, it's just a huge "buzz kill".
    They explain people who are more sensible than their god by saying satan is "wiley and cunning and constantly trying to steal salvation from them". Ignoring satan is how one truely earns his stripes and gets a backstage pass to heaven.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Satan BTW, is anyone who has a solid argument against the existence of god. Satan tends to prefer possessing people with common sense apparently.

    Satan is the rational voices of human history, personified so a finger can be pointed at them, and villainised for jeopardising the dream.
    Satan can only be defeated with ignorance, which is why theists are so skilled at deflecting his attacks.
     
  16. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    Accolades!
     
  17. c20H25N3o Shiny Heart of a Shiny Child Registered Senior Member

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    I believe Jesus came as a human being. This is the foundation of my faith. It has nothing to do with an aversion to death. I did not even think about death before my conversion with anything other than a casual "You die, thats it." attitude.

    Actually it would feel wrong to be allowed to live forever if I was evil and chose to do evil things to other people. Given that I have no doubt trespassed all over other people I find myself wanting. I cannot earn salvation. It would be terrible if you could do a whole load of evil things and then get to live forever just because you did one good thing. That would seem a terrible injustice. I am pleased that God thought enough of us to want to redeem us. We are living beings like He is. He loves us. Jesus was God's love to us. This seems realistic.

    Everyone who makes a wish in a bird shit fountain is looking past the bird shit and the penny they tossed in. When the little kid throws in his penny and wishes one day he will be big just like his dad, are you going to tell him his wish is futile? That his wish is just birdshit, water and malaria?

    The realistic stance is "You cannot prove God exists therefore this proves your delusion"

    Like I say, the believer looks past the birdshit, the water and the penny and focuses on the wish because love believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    Salvation cannot be stolen. That's the beauty of it. You either believe it or you dont. If you dont then you were never really saved. Satan was defeated at Christ's ressurection. Love never fails.

    There is no dream in this life for the Christian other than to lead a quiet life. Every believer would contest that they need to villainise non-believers given that the believers salvation rests upon the name of Jesus and not upon deflecting attacks from non-believers.


    peace

    c20
     
  18. pavlosmarcos It's all greek to me Registered Senior Member

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    BS! then why do religions cause so many wars.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2004
  19. Lemming3k Insanity Gone Mad Registered Senior Member

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    My first reaction would be 'media frenzy' as they do tend to overhype anything and everything, one thing that stands out is how he mentions founders of america were religious men and that shouldnt be hidden, to be honest i dont see why it is a relevant fact in history that they were religious? The historical fact is that they founded a nation, regardless of their religion and im not entirely sure why it needs to be stated, do they think the kids will grow up to believe the nation was founded by atheists if they dont state otherwise? Im also concerned about something at the bottom:
    .
    What age school children are we refurring to? Ones old enough not to believe and so refuse to say it? What happens then? Or younger children who shouldnt be saying it until they are older? Snakelord may have a few good points on this subject.
     
  20. okinrus Registered Senior Member

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    This type of religious indoctrination is completely different than having a kid read historical documents mentioning God. The difference, I think, is in what the school uses the documents for. Sure, if the schools were using the documents to indoctrinate, then maybe. But the school is not. The school is using the documents to explain historical fact, and give a sense of who the founding fathers really were.
     
  21. §outh§tar is feeling caustic Registered Senior Member

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    Are you saying the founding fathers were Christian?
     
  22. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

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    In these examples I perceive a difference between what are merely artifacts of cultural tradition and the point where attendance to these trappings begin to impose upon personal liberty. More specifically, the word "God" on the back of a bill or in the Declaration of Independence is no more intrusive than the pyramid the eagle or the stars. These are cultural icons each with their own historical, cultural, and religious significance.

    That being said, there is a point where these traditions become an intrusion into personal matters. Requiring a child to participate in a public prayer is beginning to cross the line unless consideration is made towards other religions and points of view as well. Certainly, as a society we need to be mindful of supporting one point of view to the exclusion of others. It seems to me that reasonable people should be able to reach some level of consensus on such matters.

    What I do not agree with, however, is thrusting a child into public scrutiny in an attempt to draw support for the opinions of an adult. Hypocritical in the extreme, these individuals (whether demanding the word God be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance or demanding it be put into the Science text books) are simply using their children to promote their own political aspirations. Strive for change if the goal seems worthy but confine the battles to the ballot boxes and PTA meetings and keep it outside the classroom.

    What we should be teaching our children in the meantime is to respect and tolerate the opinions and traditions of others. When Grandma says grace at the Thanksgiving table is not the time for me to speak my mind about God. It is when I bow my head in respect to the beliefs of others. Where is the insult to me that I should take offense and engage as if with an enemy? It seems to me that the idea of respecting another's opinion without accepting it is simple enough that even a young child can understand it.

    Censorship is the response of the insecure and the weak-minded, those who have little faith in the strength of their own opinions. It is the hallmark of tyranny, of those who would oppress the minds of others out of fear that unbound they would choose differently. Put simply, censorship leads to resentment and misunderstanding while free expression promotes tolerance and understanding.

    Seeking to sanitize our culture of any such references not only cuts us off from our own history it is a denial of what should be our greatest strength as a culture and a nation; our diversity. This is no more a secular nation than it is a Christian nation. We are a pluralistic society and should celebrate this fact and each other. Rather than censoring the expression of our various sub-cultures we should encourage everyone to express and celebrate their traditions and to stress that which is most important, the common threads that unite us.

    ~Raithere
     
  23. Repo Man Valued Senior Member

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    Though I suspect there may be more to it than what is reported in the story, not being able to mention the word god at all seems silly to me. Akin to not being able to mention that some of them owned African slaves.

    But the slogan "in god we trust" on money does piss me off. Because it was meant to.

    The next step in the process of religionizing the national currency had to wait nearly a century, when on July 11.1955, President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed Public Law 140 making it mandatory that all coinage and paper currency display the motto "In God We Trust." The following year, Public Law 851 was enacted and signed, which officially replaced the national motto "E Pluribus Unum" with "In God We Trust" All of this occurred at the height of cold war tension, when political divisions between the Soviet and western block was simplistically portrayed as a confrontation between Judeo-Christian civilization and the "godless" menace of communism.
    http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/igwt1.htm

    They showed those evil communist bastards! Of course, if you happened to be an atheist in America, TS. I've said it before, and I'll say it again; it is not the job of the state to cram religion down my throat. That is the job of the TV evangelists.
     

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