zionism verses judaism

Discussion in 'History' started by tresbien, Feb 20, 2008.

  1. tresbien Banned Banned

    Would u tell me what the difference between judaism and zionism.what is the rabai position towards zionism! and how do jews consider islam as religion since both of them believe in the same God and are cousins of course.
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  3. draqon Banned Banned

    My belief was that zionism is judaism in action of war...but thats how I see it.
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  5. skaught78 Registered Member

    Judaism and Islam are more like brothers. See Genesis 16. Abraham is the patron of both Judaism and Islam. Abraham's very first son was named Ishmael, he had Ishmael with his maidservant Hagar, and all his other children he had with his wife Sara. Genesis 16:12 says
    "12 He will be a wild donkey of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone's hand against him,
    and he will live in hostility
    toward all his brothers."

    Muslims believe the Ishmael is their father. And look to Genesis 16 as evidence of this. But Jews at the time of Mohammed did not like Mohammed. They mocked him and thought he was a joke. This made Mohammed very angry because he felt that the Jews were his brothers, and he felt rejected by them. This is why he changed the Islamic holy city from Jerusalem to Mecca. Jews and Muslims have never gotten along. Read the book "The History Of God", by Karen Armstrong.
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  7. zarlok Banned Banned

    Uhhhh, dude, try actually reading the OP's question.

    edit:And to answer the question, the two are theologically incongruent. Zionism is most similar to Nazism. As far as Rabbinical leaders, it depends to the one you ask. Some are just racist/zionist jews, others abhor and rebuke Israel's very existence.
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2008
  8. tresbien Banned Banned

    I am an Arab muslim whose parents ,grand parents and ancestors live peacefully with jews in North Africa.My father still remembers the beautiful long years he spent with jews.They were neighbours,friends and even nationalist.Jews and Muslims shared sadness and happiness.if there were a wedding or feast they exchange congratulation and even gifts.When there is a death;they console each other.Jews have been known for being good at trade and handicraft. When i was at university a few years ago,i had a jew class mate.We used to study and even exchange information.Do u think that politics seperate betwen the cousins.Are zionist real jews.
    Pls read the prophet treaty with jews on
  9. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    Zionism was a purely secular movement that is only vaguely related to Judaism as a religion. As formalized by Theodore Herzl in the 19th century, Zionism was a movement to establish a homeland for the Jews where they could be in power and thus never have to endure antisemitism. Its purpose was not to establish a religious retreat and secular Jews were prominent in its leadership.

    Israel/Palestine was the preferred location because of the obvious biblical connection.

    Zionism was a fringe movement that appealed to young intellectuals and people who in later generations might be called beatniks or hippies, but it never had strong support in the community. (Similar to the "Aztlan" and "Chicano power" movements in the American Southwest.) Jews often made the toast, "Next year in Jerusalem," but it was a formality that was not taken seriously. In fact most European Jews thought of themselves as Europeans first and Jews second (if at all) and were thoroughly acculturated (and in many cases assimilated) to the mainstream community.

    It was only after WWII created millions of Jewish refugees that the Zionists began to be listened to. Since the original Zionist movement achieved its goal (and I've opined at great length on that subect on these boards), the word Zionism has been coopted by people outside the Jewish community to mean support for the modern State of Israel,

    Interestingly, in countries whose majority population simply refused to participate in the Holocaust, the appeal of the original Zionist movement never underwent the post-WWII surge. Bulgaria, for example, saw little emigration to Israel, and three generations later its Jewish community is on the verge of vanishing through acculturation and assimilation rather than discrimination.
  10. zarlok Banned Banned

    That would be the standard propaganda line supplied by a Zionist. Afterall, the Klu Klux Klan merely seeks to protect civilized society from savagery.

    Your speculation is not fact.

    Which is the very state of Zion. No "cooption" need, just an IQ above that of a vegetable and basic logic. It's a trivial and semantc distinction at best, propaganda-like agenda-driven obfuscation at worst.

    It's hard to imagine a 'surge" in the popularity of the movement when Bulgaria was already a hotbed of zionism long before WWII. But, then again, what do you describe 95% of Bulgaria's Jews moviing to Israel of their own free will after WWII? A fact qute contradictory to your claim(s)
  11. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

    I moved this thread to History subforum because zionism is not a religion, but a political movement.
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

    Now isn't that interesting!

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  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

    My family is the typical American hodgepodge of mixed ancestry and I have quite a few Jewish relatives. I'm sixty-four years old and I lived in West Hollywood for many years, where I personally knew a lot of Jewish people who had lived in Europe in the 1930s. I have first-hand testimony from all of these people that Zionism was regarded as a cute little project perpetrated by overeducated kids with not enough real work to do and that nobody in their right mind wanted to leave the civilization of Vienna or Budapest to go live in frelling Palestine/Israel or whatever the precocious kids wanted to call it. The Wikipedia article on Zionism has a page of citations from people and organizations all over the political spectrum on the issue who all agree on just one thing: that Zionism was a secular, political movement and not a religious one.

    What have you got?
    Well apparently you're right about most of that, sorry. I guess the Jews I met in Bulgaria were Ashkenazim who didn't want to go to Israel and who in the 35 years since I met them have been happily assimilating, so their children don't even identify themselves as Jews anymore. There's always been quite a rift between the Ashkenazim and the Sephardim so I got a slanted version of the story. Nonetheless it is true that the Bulgarian people did not support Hitler's policies despite their government's sellout, and they rival the Danes in the risks they took to try to save their Jewish neighbors. This spirit certainly facilitated the assimilation of the Jews who stayed in Bulgaria.
  14. tresbien Banned Banned

    pls do not move the thread since it is interesting to listen to religious jews to give their opinion on judaism and islam and what do they think of zionism.
  15. angrybellsprout paultard since 2002 Registered Senior Member


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