Not so many months ago we (some users of sciforums) agreed that "evil" is not relative, but is any harm we intentionally do to any other person or a group of persons which don't endanger us

now to say that we have done our task we need to define "good" - no , Webster doesn't count!


for the start :->

maybe- an action taken by any consciousness that without a personal gain does something that is valuable to any other person, entity, system (nature for instance)

I think good is something like:
an action (or intention) by a sentient agent that enhances the('total amount of') well-being of living creatures. This also means that suffering and hazards to development must be avoided as much as possible to do good.

somethingish

I'd have to agree. By defining evil you also defined good, seeing as it is it's exact oposite...

Really it's just like anything else in this crazy universe. It's all in the eye of the beholder isn't it? I may see something as good where you would see it as evil. Everything, including the bacteria under your fingernails, is relative.

Peace

Originally posted by notme2000
I'd have to agree. By defining evil you also defined good, seeing as it is it's exact oposite...
really?

opposite-

any action which brings personal improvement of situation we intentionally do to any other person or a group of persons which don't endanger us

--
ok maybe- but we'll have to cut out the "endanger" part

I thought like that also, but don't you agree that it will always be an evil action to do harm to others which don't endanger ourselves?

if it is always so then it is not relative

ok maybe- but we'll have to cut out the "endanger" part
Or just choose the oposite of "endanger" as well. To do good to someone who does good to us isn't true GOOD, just returning a favor. Initiating the good is it's purest form.

ie: any action which brings personal improvement of situation we intentionally do to any other person or a group of persons which don't favor us first

any action which brings personal improvement of situation we intentionally do to any other person or a group of persons which don't favor us first
yes- that seems good :)
but I suggest that we add

any action which brings personal improvement of situation we intentionally do to any other person or a group of persons, any alive being or any system* which don't favor us first

*with a system I think of our biosphere, aquasphere, nature, planet
please help me to improve that part

This concept of good and evil is a product of your cultural system. It's time to quote Nietzsche.

"Here there is one thing we shall be the last to deny: he who knows these "good men" only as enemies knows only evil enemies, and the same men who are held so sternly in check interpares by custom, respect, usage, gratitude, and even more by mutual suspicion and jealousy, and who on the other hand in their relations with one another show themselves so resourceful in consideration, self-control. delicacy, loyalty, pride, and friendship -- once they go outside, where the strange, the stranger is found, they are not much better than uncaged beasts of prey. There they savour a freedom from all social constraints, they compensate themselves in the wilderness for the tension engendered by protracted confinement and enclosure within the peace of society, they go back to the innocent conscience of the beast of prey, as triumphant monsters who perhaps emerge from a disgusting procession of murder, arson, rape, and torture, exhilarated and undisturbed of soul, as if it were no more than a students' prank, convinced they have provided the poets with a lot more material for song and praise. One cannot fail to see at the bottom of all these noble races the beast of prey, the splendid blond beast prowling about avidly in search of spoil and victory; this hidden core needs to erupt from time to time, the animal has to get out again and go back to the wilderness: the Roman, Arabian, Germanic, Japanese nobility, the Homeric heroes, the Scandinavian Vikings -- they all shared this need."

F Nietzsche, "Good and Evil," "Good and Bad"

with a system I think of our biosphere, aquasphere, nature, planet
But that isn't so much doing good as it is being safe... I agree we should all do our share in the planet's well being, but I don't think that's a moral decision, more one of foresight.

This concept of good and evil is a product of your cultural system.
yes- but wouldn'tour incomplete definition of "good" be a good action in any other culture, civilization or specie?
same goes for evil

would any aliens tell us that it is evil to try "save the whales" for instance

Originally posted by notme2000
But that isn't so much doing good as it is being safe... I agree we should all do our share in the planet's well being, but I don't think that's a moral decision, more one of foresight.
yes- I agree

And of course there's the existential approach. Good and Evil are simply the result of what we enjoy happening to ourselves. We can grasp the concept that others "feel" too, so GOOD would be to do on to others as we would want done to us for the sake of hapiness, and EVIL would be to do on to others which we would not want done to us for the sake of misery, probably for a power trip, or revenge, spite, anger, etc...

Thus good and bad depends on what you enjoy and don't enjoy, and the species has a GENERAL consensus on this.

good point - you brought me back to relativity :)


but we can still discuss "good" and "evil" if speaking of our present day culture and people in general

Well, one way of looking at the relativity point of it is, well, bondage... Some would concider it good of you to do this to them, other's evil...

(Bannana is the safe word :D )

some would consider it good if I kill their children they love?
still are some things, that.....

but , yes, maybe hmmmmm
yes, you are probably right- there is no general good for humans

Recipe for Evil
1. Overidentify with a cause.
2. Elevate personal goals over concern for human consequences of decisions.
3. Lack empathy.

Recipe for Good
1. You’re Existence

I could even go so far as to say evil is relative too. Dr Krevorkian (if that's how you spell his name) would kill people. But because they wanted it. So he is intentionally harming someone FOR good. Contradictory to the definition of evil at the beginning of this thread...

Just a thought...

Pine_Net,
Very good points!

ok ok- I now seem like a person that's being influenced every second :D:bugeye:
I had abandoned my understanding of good and evil and now I'm developing it - as in every development there are many errors
don't mind me if a have another mind shift

I'm only throwing out all these different ideas cause there's no real way we can fully accept one if we realize how valid they all are... It's a question as old as time...

hey- but what if we knew , what is good for the particular other person?

I would have to say that'd be the ultimate good...

Of course women are a huge flaw in this one... "You should know what I want by now, if you don't, I'm not telling" :D

Sometimes doing good to one person can hurt another. Then what is it you're doing? Good or evil? There are events in your life time which make you chose.

When you walk your path in life, it may happen that you take a different road at a certain moment, which fits best in your life. It may happen that in that proces you have to make choices. Not to do evil and live on against your feelings or do good to your life and that of others involved when you go the different road.

Then you do "good" to the latter but "evil" to the first.

What defines doing good then?

It would be cool when you can find a solution in which everyone is pleased, it doesn't work out that way all the time.

In general, doing good is seen as being helpful and open to all living beings on Earth.

Best you can do to achieve this is listen to your heart. Live and let live.

For people personally, there will always be events in which some see you as evil and others see you as good. I think this is rather black and white. You have to find a way in between and try to live your life from out your heart, it always leads you on the right path.

Listen to others, may it be human or nature. See what is happening and do what is right. Never turn away, face it and act the best way possible.

I'm chaotic good

and I like to think of myslef as sometimes being evil
probably because I strongly dislike those people who go around and help others by nothing getting themselves - I duno why
I seem to think that they are weak people

I'm chaotic good

Good and evil, as people have already posted here, don't exist as set definitions. They are your judgement at the time, and they are never a permanent label and thus cannot exist except for in the dimension of time.

This exceprt gives an nice example of it:

One must percieve each situation he enters as part of the flow, rather than investing personal significance in it, whether it is "good" or "bad". For instance, one might see a friend in the distance, and think it "good", but while running to meet him break his leg; breaking his leg, he might think is "bad"; but the person in the distance turns out to be a soldier coming to draft him for war, so the break is "good". Seeing his friend is both perceived as "bad" and "good"; breaking his leg is perceived as both "bad" and "good". One must quench inner conflicts and value judgments in order to "go with the flow" of the universe, which is tied together in one organic creature, and is neither intrinsically "good" nor "bad".

It came from a Taoism website, you can ignore that "go with the flow" part...but the example is a nice one.

You cannot generalize good and evil because there is no such thing except in your head...each person makes a unique decision.

If you were able to use logic and reasoning the moment you were born...what would you consider good and evil? I would say pain would be evil...and everything else is good. As you become aware of the world around you, your logic gets snagged by contradictions of your education (either formal education or self-taught...i.e. just living and learning). When your logic is messed, you then can realize good and evil can exist at the same time, same place, labeling the same object...and how can that happen?

I don't mean to insult your intelligence when I say your logic is messed up....it was meant to shorten saying everything that can cloud your reasoning.

Any concept of good and evil can only exist in the dimension of time. You might as well try to generalize and define right and wrong...it all depends on time.

Avatar:

and I like to think of myslef as sometimes being evil
probably because I strongly dislike those people who go around and help others by nothing getting themselves - I duno why
I seem to think that they are weak people

I agree. They seem like they are just on an ego trip, or they are trying to get into heaven, or whatever.

I don't think of myself as good or evil, although it's horridly fun to be "evil". I see myself as someone who acts and who wills.

I don't really have the desire to hurt people in any real sense. Thus, I might well be described as "good".
But I also don't think there's anything inherently wrong with harming other people in a real sense. So I am easily described as "evil". I don't accept "their" values or institutions, thus I am "evil" by their standards. But I also Will to protect and help those who need this from me.

I simply find the categories irrelevent...except when I have a little fun mocking them.

Grazzhoppa:

f you were able to use logic and reasoning the moment you were born...what would you consider good and evil? I would say pain would be evil...and everything else is good.

Pain is by no means evil. It can serve us, sometimes by amplifying passion, sometimes by teaching us.


Any concept of good and evil can only exist in the dimension of time.

What's your point? Everything exists in a universe that includes the dimension of time.

*Edit*
""I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people."

- Mother Teresa

This, to me, is very evil.

my point was that it can't be defined because it doesn't exist in a dimension that we can comprehend with our minds. The labels (words) exist but you can't generalize and define it. It's just my opinion though.

Pain is by no means evil. It can serve us, sometimes by amplifying passion, sometimes by teaching us.
But as a new born you will have no knowledge that it can amplify passion, that it can teach you something....until you experience it.
Here's another example that almost everyone can relate to. When your at a toy store and you want a toy really bad, but no one will buy it for you, you consider them evil...bad...unfair...harmful to yourself. Yet you do not know that this pain your feeling will teach you a lesson, it all depends on time till you realize it. Then that (emotional) pain and aguish you felt is no longer considered evil.

When your logic is not clouded, evil registers to what your instincts tell you.

Do you suppose Hitler thought he was evil? What do you think he thought of everyone who concidered him evil? He must have been pretty sure of what good and evil was to go that far with it... That is the same certainty we have when we say anything else is good... Leading me to believe it's all subjective.

I just think that the idea of good and evil as objective absolutes is completely rediculous :p

I think that the 'good' is any action which increases welfare of all human beings and does not harm anybody simultaneously. Whis 'welfare' I mean all the possible aspects of human welfare - intellectual, psychological, emotional, social and finansial. The synonymos of 'good' is the word 'love'.

Welcome, welcome, XPEH BAM!
I'm glad you are here, hope you stay here for a bit longer than this thread.

XPEH BAM is my pal from one Latvian forum. We stand in one entrenchments against our common "enemy" :D


(tu man laikam neticesi , bet es vakar biju nokluvis tava lapa pavisam nejausi, tikai nezinaju, ka ta ir taveja (man paradija uzreiz saturu) - es biju iegajis viena lapa ( http://www.cs.llu.lv/Msppersml/studenti/9817060/index.htm ) , kur bija links uz klubu415 , bet adrese nestradaja- googlis man uz 415 atrada tavu lapu :p )

Welcome to Sciforums XPEH BAM! "good" to have you here!

peace be with you

Yes, weclome! :D

Tanan vaga for greetings here!
In fact I disagree with Avatar thesis that we are standing in one foritification ring against our enemy (christhians). It is not so, because we cann't consider christhians as enemies, they simply are people little bit different from non-theists and non-believers. Yes, they are sometimes agressive and say threats, but non-believers are also doing so. We all are human beings!!!
And also in accordance with topic - 'good' also is any action, that helps to develop a constructive identity of any human being.

Nu, un kā mājaslapa? :)) Tiesa, viņa ir drusku novecojusi, bet man vienkārši ir baigais slinkums viņu papildināt, kā arī zemā apmeklējuma dēļ neredzu jēgu šādam pasākumam.

Interesanti, latvieshu burti parādīsies vai ne? :)

Nu, un ka majaslapa?
orģināli, bet būtu mazliet pie dizaina jāpiestrādā

Interesanti, latvieshu burti paradisies vai ne?
uz Operas paradas, pameginaju uz IE, bet uz ta bija keburi.

In fact I disagree with Avatar thesis that we are standing in one foritification ring against our enemy (christhians).
I put "christians" in quotation-marks ;) and a laughing smiley beside

Curious. What language are you guys speaking?

ok- so I propose that we label "good" and "evil" as subjective ethical concepts of our specie.

what do you think?



urious. What language are you guys speaking?
Latvian

Originally posted by Avatar
ok- so I propose that we label "good" and "evil" as subjective ethical concepts of our specie.

what do you think?



Latvian

Why label them at all? Everything Zen! Now go fetch me a cup of tea.

;)

First of all, anything can't be good unless something is defined as evil. One exists because of the other. They are complements. If everything was good, there would be no evil, and there would be no good because good exists because of evil. You cant have one without the other. Both of there meanings complement each other.

I am disagree with you guys again. And proposition that 'good and evil are properties of mankind' has to be changed to 'good and evil are properties of any intellectual beings'; intellectual beings are any beings that consider themselves more than just a machines for eating, drinking, copulating and sleeping (and machines like that are animals, because they are determined beings - always react in an identical way). So, that's all, in short.
---
Avatar:
Mājaslapu dizains vajag priekš tiem, kas nespēj koncentrēt uzmanību ilgāk par 2 min vienas lapas aplūkošanai; manā lapā galvenais ir saturs. Par operu nezinu, pats lietoju eksploreri, un nekādu probzu nav.

'First of all, anything can't be good unless something is defined as evil. One exists because of the other. They are complements. If everything was good, there would be no evil, and there would be no good because good exists because of evil. You cant have one without the other. Both of there meanings complement each other.'
---
Disagree. We can evaluate any action as good or evil in accordance with its vector - is this action constructive and helps to develop anything or is it destructive? If action is very complex and consists from several different vectors, the base criteria for evaluating 'good/evil' will a sum of all these vectors.
And also is possible, that this vector will be perpendicular to the axis of 'good/evil'; in such case the action can not be considered as 'good' or 'evil'; it will be neitral.

"(and machines like that are animals, because they are determined beings - always react in an identical way). "

small stepps XPEH, small steps.

Agree with Tom York. Human beings are harmful on the Earth in the relation with another species and environment. The Earth would be better place, if there were no mankind. :(