Socialism or Capitalism?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by ThazzarBaal, May 25, 2023.

  1. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    Pro's and cons of each ...

    I think we're seeing a rise in a more socialist type government. I also see capitalism being viewed as unfair to some. Is this the issue in the United States?

    Do we want socialism or capitalism? I've never been a fan of socialism, but then I grew up under the right to pursue happiness banner and an honest effort and achievement reward system.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,320
    "State capitalism" (state ownership of industry) is still capitalism -- or, to put another way, still deals in property/production and eventually yields to a mix with private enterprise if it hopes to compete globally (as with the case of China). The supposed traditional "oppressor" of business moguls and the bourgeoisie is simply replaced by authoritarian government bureaucrats and regulators (protectors of the collectivist system and social justice) who incrementally enrich themselves over time and become a privileged class of their own (proto-oligarchs).

    Any socioeconomic organization of sufficient complexity (involving city-like establishments rather than small tribal units) will via the very nature of its essential operations sprout some form of social hierarchy structure. Post-capitalism has never been achieved by past Marxist experiments -- again, it stalls out with either strict state ownership or a mix, or bizarre forms of nationalism (the cult personality leadership of a spiritual commune expanded to nationwide level: North Korea).

    Wealth redistribution has an insufficient quantity to dispense if it doesn't offer incentives and rewards for achievement (hard labor, innovation, taking on risky endeavors, etc). Such being the very menace to radical egalitarianism, that shatterer of homogeneity goals (universal sameness) with respect to the overall population.

    "Capital" doesn't even have to be physical property and assets. For instance, special knowledge/creativity and intellectual belongings slash artistic ability might engender and maintain a stratum of achievers in a future society, where robot labor had completely replaced the proles and white collar roles. Individual human ambition and ego always finds a way to rise above the ruminant herd.

    This is China's century, and its groundbreaking success will surely attract other countries to imitate its model. So long-suffering leftangelicals and anarchists in some regions may finally have their dreams fulfilled, at least in terms of replacing the boring version of [classic] oppression they grew up under with a superficially different variety. The Church was devoted to altruism (or agape) at the promotional level (appearances), too -- an ancient and venerated form of exploitation (racket) with many faces.
    _
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Janus58 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,394
    It's not a binary either/or. We want capitalism in those areas where it does best, and socialism in those areas it does best.
     
    cluelusshusbund likes this.
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,522
    So are you opposed to things like public libraries, public schools, fire departments and stuff like that?
     
  8. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    Language arts never ceases to impress a guy like me. I enjoyed the wording and I can't in my right mind disagree with your sentiments. On the other hand, being a slave to the grind has a bitter taste and the all work no play aspect of capitalism and commerce somewhat counterproductive to the goal itself ... I would think.

    Intellectual property and things like art, etc, as you suggested, may well be my only way to progress in this current environment. I'm not opposed to wealth, nor capitalistic pursuits, I'm just poor and getting too old to hang with the younger generations at the construction site. I'm too general labor built to go any other route at this point, but art is a rewarding hobby in and of itself.

    Politics ....

    My question boils down to where we're going as a nation. What's the future hold for my gen z son? Career paths and job placement are not in their hay day, nor are educational opportunities affordable enough for a 26 year old to feel at ease enough to continue. It concerns me. I don't trust socialism. There's too many too hard to read small print attached to the fundings.
     
  9. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    Yeah, just like I'm opposed to wealth and good health.
     
  10. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    I'm on board with paying taxes. I'm not opposed to social programs. I am concerned about our debt and how we're handling it. That's why I find a socialist structured method unsatisfactory. It's in the fine print in terms and conditions. It's concerning, but then we're poor and money isn't easy to come by.
     
  11. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    Anyone remember Ralph Nader. I could get on board with the free higher education type social program - that was 23 years ago I think.

    It appears that the US is lagging behind in a few areas, education being one of them.
     
  12. gmilam Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,522
    Just saying, these are not capitalistic enterprises. As someone else already said, it's not a binary choice.
     
  13. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,634
    Most people in the US want both.

    They want socialism for their military, police, roads, public sanitation, EMS and firefighters.
    They want capitalism for the consumer economy, the real estate market and the investment market.
    They want a mix of the two for things like the FCC and public utilities.
     
  14. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,320
    People with practical, technical expertise will always be in demand (medical, construction, maintenance, repair, adjusting slashing setting up equipment and machines).

    In contrast, AI will replace more white collar, customer service, design, and salesperson jobs than once believed -- not just factory, transportation (autonomous vehicles), store retail, and grunt labor.

    WWIII may occur before the decade is over, regardless of who is in office (i.e., possibly too late for even a schmoozer of the Russia, China, Iran, NK bloc to walk things back).

    And just as cigarette smoking really is harmful (declarations of personal liberty set aside), the doom and gloom expectations of the global collapse crowd probably will happen. That is, one may detest the exploitation of crises (climate change, resource depletion, plastic pollution, species extinction, and so-forth) as an excuse for ideological and authoritarian implementation... But that disgust at political and commercial opportunism is a separate matter from the impending reality and consequences of an _X_.
    .
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2023
  15. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    I found your inquiry to be less than sincere, so I chose to return in like manner. You asked if I supported the obviously supported by umm I would suggest everyone. The reason for your previous post as inquiry I couldn't guess, given the divide between socially funded and capitalistic entities has been ongoing for as long as I've been alive.

    What are you suggesting? Obviously my concern doesn't rest in our history, but rather in our upcoming futures. I would however increase social programs to include higher education, given this nation cannot compete at international levels with an uneducated majority.
     
  16. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    I might agree, aside from the above seeming to be on the side burner of the political fires. I mean, it seems to me that people expect the government to provide programs beyond what's been stated as things this nation wants to be funded via socialistic type government programs.
     
  17. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    I'll disagree with much of your posting. As zen z comes up as the tech gen and gaming generation with little experience in harder labor as those stated in your post, and as technology advances in robotics increase, it would seem to me that more programers and operators will be in demand.
     
  18. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    21,634
    Agreed. Some people want more stuff from the government, some people want less. Seems like we're at a midpoint on that scale.
     
  19. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    Maybe so ...

    What about the private sector and attached funding of social programs? It's in demand, but then there are always conditions attached. Higher education seems a worthwhile effort by employers with job placement after completion. That may help with food and housing of some of our youth as we progress as a nation and it would help us become more competitive internationally as a nation.
     
  20. C C Consular Corps - "the backbone of diplomacy" Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,320
    Despite potentially mimicking the sedentary athletics of the mundane clerical worker, programming falls under the category of what was meant by technical expertise. Though AI is nibbling at the heels of code writing, too. Won't be till after Generation Alpha enters the workforce that the latter matures enough to really threaten. Humans will still be needed for maintaining and repairing the hardware of robots and machine intelligence for some time even after that drop-off (hopefully, anyway).
    _
     
  21. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    AI?
     
  22. ThazzarBaal Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    645
    AI are capable of rendering humans as unnecessary, but they're unable to fix themselves and machinery without us. Hmm, well ... Umm wouldn't that make us vital to their success? Seems an odd proposition you posit.

    Or maybe we're in agreement with AI replacing humans in some positions. I will agree that it seems a beneficial thing to do so, and for humans to double down on tech knowhow and gardening maybe. Oh, no one really wants a computer generated painting. Hand painted fine art seems much more appealing. There's lots of things left in the human arena to accommodate our abilities as types of payable employment. Hard labor seems too laborious these days for many, not to mention safety issues being a contributing factor in an ai-type workforce.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2023
  23. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    11,888
    Well, hopefully the republicans will get in power and the debt will no longer be a concern. When republicans are in power the the debt ceiling is just raised without much fuss, the debt ceiling is only a problem for the republicans when the democrats are in power.
     

Share This Page