Congratulations America - you got the president you deserve

Status
Not open for further replies.
It comes up, sometimes.
By you.
Compared to absolutely accuracy, it's actually a lot more apparent when something is dysfunctionally inaccurate.
Dysfunctionally is not a word. Your use of the term is dysfuntionally inaccurate.
Zealots, hypocrites, fascists; it depends on the variation. But, sure, you're describing zealots, at least.
I'm describing fascists because they meet all the requirements for fascism. They are also theists, hypocrites, liars, grifters and host of other descriptors.
It's just one of those things where not all fascists are Nazis, and not all theists are zealots. If you need to paint all theists everywhere according to the magagaga, that's entirely on you.
Dude, I know that Trump now calls himself a Christian, but is a Christian as much as I am a Muslim. It's clear he's not a theist, yet is a fascist. Biden, on the other hand, is a practicing theist, but is not a fascist.
Think back to old sayings, like, "There is no morality without God," or the stuffy old men penning letters about secular humanism as the thin edge of the wedge. You might remember we actually used to argue against that stuff, here. And, sure, that stupid, traditional supremacism was dishonest and unimaginative, but nothing about that precludes the possibility of atheists being moral relativists, divisive, superstitious, or dishonest.
Yes, it is a possibility, but on the scale, it's low probability while on the scale with fascists, it's very high probability. For example, the latest attack in Las Vegas is being claimed by the fascists to have been committed by migrants, yet it was an American soldier. I don't see that kind of behavior coming from the non-fascists. Do you?
Repeatedly fulfilling and reinforcing religious zealots' prejudice against atheists only reinforces their prejudices about atheism.

C'mon, even you are capable of figuring that one out.
I can figure out they are incredibly stupid and that facts and evidence mean absolutely nothing to them. They are reinforced by lies, not truth. Even you are capable of figuring that one out.
Well, (Q), that's why only you can tell us the value of human life compared to the thrill of screeching in futility at the people you hate.
You're being overly dramatic here, T.
 
Trek:

Obviously, I wasn't on the jury (or was it just a judge) who heard all the evidence in that case.

Did Derek Chauvin appeal the verdict? If not, then it seems reasonable to assume either (a) he does not dispute the outcome or (b) he judges that an appeal will be unlikely to succeed.

Are you across all the details of the case? Do you agree with the verdict? If not, why not?
It was a jury and Chauvin and the other officers involved pleaded guilty. It was all on video so they had no defense.
 
What I have picked up from reading the snippets.
Seattle is a one man band defending his rights to support a Trump approach to the Economy rather than a Biden approach.
I don't think at any point he has said he supports him as a man/human or President particularly.
Certainly not in a MAGA way.
It is not easy to support a position that everyone else is very hostile towards and this is a very long thread.
The other day, I said this of Trek:
To me, that "guy" is more like that speck of whatever that you can never seem to wipe from your glasses or screen. AI surpassed that type ages ago, and that's not really hyperbole. But sometimes you just scratch an itch even when you know it's not necessarily bettering the situation.
If one considers that in the context of other things I've said or evinced--

I find the concept of (subjective) "rights" inherently problematic and bogus, frankly (my rationale stems largely from either Marx's or Engels's contention that rights are necessarily something accorded "from above", i.e., authority), and I've got views on violence and killing people that aren't shared by many people, to put it mildly

--one might reasonably conjecture, "dude sounds like a fucking psychopath." And, in fairness, I've got some sociopathic--or antisocial, at the very least--attributes. But I don't think I'm a psychopath, and I don't think anyone else really does either (it's been discussed--extensively). Moreover, if you remove language from the equation, sociopathic qualities largely diminish.

My point there is that definitive pronouncements or judgements about people are difficult to make, generally, let alone making such about some rando on the internets. There are plenty of people I like, but as far as most people--especially Americans? I really struggle to see the humanity or animality in them. I can present a not entirely unreasonable argument that most people are not, in fact, lifeforms at all, but I digress...

Trek is an idiot and largely a waste of time/space/resources. Seattle has a well documented history of bigotry here--he has made a lot of overtly racist, coded racist (as in, obvious to American readers; perhaps less so to non-American readers), misogynistic and even classist (re: homeless people, poor people, addicts, et al) remarks over the years. He's also frequently dishonest--lot's of straw men, goal post shifting, etc. He's also not stupid. At least, I don't think he is. When he posts bigoted bullshit, half the time I'm not entirely convinced that he even believes what he's saying. But I don't know. That could just be me trying to be "generous" or inhabiting uncertainty.

But the whole notion of some sort of "fiscal conservativism"/right-wing/"It's the economy, stupid"-ism that is largely free of bigotry and intolerance is a myth. I'll entertain the idea hypothetically, but I see no evidence for such in the real world. The bigotry both stem and follows from the allegedly "pure" economic ideas and ideals. Of course, a person can have a more "conservative" perspective on certain matters, but that's hardly the same thing. My "evidence" for this contention: Name one single conservative presently living, or within the 20th/21st century who does or did not have a "problematic" background--by that, I mean a personal history of bigotry or very strong ties to overtly bigoted persons or organizations.
 
The other day, I said this of Trek:

If one considers that in the context of other things I've said or evinced--

I find the concept of (subjective) "rights" inherently problematic and bogus, frankly (my rationale stems largely from either Marx's or Engels's contention that rights are necessarily something accorded "from above", i.e., authority), and I've got views on violence and killing people that aren't shared by many people, to put it mildly

--one might reasonably conjecture, "dude sounds like a fucking psychopath." And, in fairness, I've got some sociopathic--or antisocial, at the very least--attributes. But I don't think I'm a psychopath, and I don't think anyone else really does either (it's been discussed--extensively). Moreover, if you remove language from the equation, sociopathic qualities largely diminish.

My point there is that definitive pronouncements or judgements about people are difficult to make, generally, let alone making such about some rando on the internets. There are plenty of people I like, but as far as most people--especially Americans? I really struggle to see the humanity or animality in them. I can present a not entirely unreasonable argument that most people are not, in fact, lifeforms at all, but I digress...

Trek is an idiot and largely a waste of time/space/resources. Seattle has a well documented history of bigotry here--he has made a lot of overtly racist, coded racist (as in, obvious to American readers; perhaps less so to non-American readers), misogynistic and even classist (re: homeless people, poor people, addicts, et al) remarks over the years. He's also frequently dishonest--lot's of straw men, goal post shifting, etc. He's also not stupid. At least, I don't think he is. When he posts bigoted bullshit, half the time I'm not entirely convinced that he even believes what he's saying. But I don't know. That could just be me trying to be "generous" or inhabiting uncertainty.

But the whole notion of some sort of "fiscal conservativism"/right-wing/"It's the economy, stupid"-ism that is largely free of bigotry and intolerance is a myth. I'll entertain the idea hypothetically, but I see no evidence for such in the real world. The bigotry both stem and follows from the allegedly "pure" economic ideas and ideals. Of course, a person can have a more "conservative" perspective on certain matters, but that's hardly the same thing. My "evidence" for this contention: Name one single conservative presently living, or within the 20th/21st century who does or did not have a "problematic" background--by that, I mean a personal history of bigotry or very strong ties to overtly bigoted persons or organizations.
Ok I'll get back on all this.

Thanks for the info though P
 
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. Louis Brandeis.
Great wealth in the hands of a few isn't a problem for democracy PROVIDED that there are barriers between the power that that money wields and the government. Unfortunately that is not the case, and is becoming less so all the time. Citizens United was one of the more recent examples of moving backwards on that.
 
Great wealth in the hands of a few isn't a problem for democracy PROVIDED that there are barriers between the power that that money wields and the government. Unfortunately that is not the case, and is becoming less so all the time. Citizens United was one of the more recent examples of moving backwards on that.
Agreed. So lets focus on that and not on the idea that everyone's income or wealth should be "equal".
 
People want to live where there are jobs. It's not about the progressive policies.

That's only partly true, if not for progressive policies, you get states that fail at all metrics; health care, education, etc. Why would anyone want to move to a state where it's elected leaders govern poorly whereas states with progressive policies support things like health care, education, etc. which is a much better reason to move there. Any state can offer a job, but not all states offer other things that attract people there.
Microsoft, Google, etc pay well, with or without the progressive policies. Progressive policies aren't going to make Mississippi a place where people flock to.
Why not? Is Mississippi that much of a shithole that no one would ever want to move there? Or, are there elected leaders (Maga Republicans) hell bent on fighting culture wars, hating on the gay crowd and nothing much else. What does Microsoft and Google have to do with anything?
 
“The left was very successful the last four years in bringing a negative connotation to MAGA, and I think they lost that battle the day that Elon Musk came out in support [of Trump], because now all of a sudden it just became punk rock to be Republican,” said Nevada state assembly member Danielle Gallant.
(Emphasis added.)

Yeah. How is it that these people are so bad at everything from comedy to music to writing to reading to living ethically to having even a semblance of taste, but they're so good at grifting?
 
Name one single conservative presently living, or within the 20th/21st century who does or did not have a "problematic" background--by that, I mean a personal history of bigotry or very strong ties to overtly bigoted persons or organizations.
I can only speak for the UK and Sajid Javid is probably a good candidate but I get your point. I would struggle to put forward anyone from Johnsons party besides Sunak.
 
I can only speak for the UK and Sajid Javid is probably a good candidate but I get your point. I would struggle to put forward anyone from Johnsons party besides Sunak.
Yeah. It's pretty damn hard to find a decent example--even when you go back several decades. It's like you have to go all the way back into Adam Smith territory, and then you encounter a whole 'nother set of "problematic" attributes.
 
Yeah. It's pretty damn hard to find a decent example--even when you go back several decades. It's like you have to go all the way back into Adam Smith territory, and then you encounter a whole 'nother set of "problematic" attributes.
One problem we do have is that if you go back far enough everyone is racist.
It is not that far either, the 1960s?
My grandad by today's standards WAS racist. He thought black people all played the bongos. Racist right?
He was born in 1903 and did not encounter a black person till after WW2 and his education was Pathe news where all black people were tribesmen.
Things changed when he heard Nat King Cole but that's another story.
Without getting into what racism actually is it is not based on hate, it is based on ignorance and fear of the unknown.
If you happen to be a hateful person, bully or general POS then sure that's part of it but then those guys will hate on a quiet nerd or fat guy.
 
Yeah. It's pretty damn hard to find a decent example--even when you go back several decades. It's like you have to go all the way back into Adam Smith territory, and then you encounter a whole 'nother set of "problematic" attributes.
Trump is a POS and I think terms like racism probably do not apply to him.
What does he think of the average working man in America? He probably resents Musk.
 
Without getting into what racism actually is it is not based on hate, it is based on ignorance and fear of the unknown.
I'd say it's even simpler than that - it's based on homophily, which is something we all experience. Unless you recognize and fight it, you'll end up treating people who look/talk/act/dress differently than you - differently.
 
I'd say it's even simpler than that - it's based on homophily, which is something we all experience. Unless you recognize and fight it, you'll end up treating people who look/talk/act/dress differently than you - differently.
Absolutely and that is part of our Evolution, recognition of kin and tribe was the difference between life and death.
 
However if a kid is not indoctrinated with hate early doors and differences are normalised, then those things do not grow and persist.
 
Trump is a POS and I think terms like racism probably do not apply to him.
What does he think of the average working man in America? He probably resents Musk.
In many ways though, Trump is very much the typical American racist. As Don Jr once reminded us, his dad has a lot of Black rapper friends. Othering generally requires some measure of cognitive dissonance, but that sort of Othering--the kind in which that Black guy (whom they personally know) and that Black guy are different, and not like the rest--demands a sort of exponentiated cognitive dissonance.

At the same time, that sort of racism also offers some hope towards eventual change--sometimes, at least. Unfortunately, in this case, with Trump, et al, this form more readily lends itself towards totalitarianism. The Final Solution was arguably more effective due, in part, to the availability of the more "useful" Jews and mischlinge.
 
At the same time, that sort of racism also offers some hope towards eventual change
Kind of. I don't think people just change, they die off and their kids live and get different ideas.
You have champions of course but out of the population it is much lower.
So, good riddance grandad, I still love you but I am happy that your out look is not as it was in the 1950s.
 
Not as a natural phenomenon. Without preparation to fear or disdain people of a different appearance, the natural reaction is interest, curiosity.
It is indeed a natural phenomenon; you can Google it if you like.

Watch a 5 year old meet another child who is missing an arm (or have some other obvious anatomic difference.) They will generally touch their own arm to verify that there's a difference, then look at their parents or the people around them to see how to react - because they have been alerted that something is different and potentially dangerous by that instinct, homophily. If the people around them show no bad reactions and/or encouragement they will generally accept the new kid. They have learned that he's not a threat.

We evolved that because millenia ago, a new person who suddenly appeared in our 'tribe' was a risk. It might be a vanguard of a new group looking for food/resources that your tribe has. It might be someone eager to kill you and take what you have. Or it might be a new trading partner/ally/neighbor. But it was, often enough, a bad thing. And that meant that tribes with a natural aversion to different looking people survived more often.
 
Moderator note:
I have split some off-topic posts, which were not about America getting the President it deserves, to separate threads, here:
and here:

Given the open-ended nature of the original thread topic here, it seems likely that the discussion will keep drifting off-topic in similar ways, onto members' pet obsessions or just their random thoughts about this or that.

So, I am closing this thread.

Please feel free to start a new thread about the new (old) President, who is about assume the office again in a little under two weeks from now. But maybe try to focus the topic a bit.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top