5th Dimension

[DJA]

However, change that occurs alond with time may be possible to alter it time is also. I'm cannot think of either moving back an forth in time or having changes befor they occut happening, but physics may have some theoretical, but only theoretical ways to do this.
Change is what happens to the other dimensions as time proceeds. The vase with it's three dimensions changes as does the wave.
The flow of electrons in a lighting bolt chages as it equalizes potential. Channge occurs in three dimensional objects and energy.
It is not possible to have something with three dimensions exist without time or without change. Without those other two dimensions, the 3 dimensional object would not exist. It is the same with energy, although energy lacks the other dimensions.

 

[DJA]

A peppermint stick in the rain gradually melts. If you see it when it's half gone, it has been raining for some time. The time it has been raining is not change, but what happened to the Peppermint stick is.
All objects and things in the cosmos (or creation if you prefer) have the dimension of change.
Let me ask you this. If there were no stars, no planets, no subways, no celestial objects and no energy would time exist? Certainly change would not as there would be nothing to change. If time were change, it would not be possible to think of it as separate from any existing thing.
But in our minds, it is possble to imagine the passage of time abstractly without thinking of any change. I must get to my plane by 7:00 I hope I won;t be late coming home tonight. Three minutes is a measurment we can think of as is three meters. We have devices made to measure all of these dimensions. We also know that when I drink my orange juice this morning the glass will be empty. You don't know how long it will take you to drink this but you do know that the dimentions of the juice itself will change inthe glass. The full glass compared to the empty is an example of change. The change can be MEASURED by the other four dimentions together. Those measurements will show the change in the juice. But the change in the juice is not time itself, nor is it any one of the other three dimensions. It is itself-change.
DJA

 

[DJA]

Andrew,
I'm sorry that I did not respond to your questions before writing the thoughts above first.
If you have a video then the video does have an element of time, but you forget that the video becomes part of film or part of a machine that does change every time it is turned on. The film or or images in,say a computer,will also change, albeit very slowly in the computer as they are acted upon by other forces.
In fact the photograph you have is three dimentional as it is an image on paper which WILL change over time. Both the paper and the image will gradually fade. There is nothing that I can think of that has permanance but God, the angels he created and our souls.

DJA

 

[DJA]

Just one more point. Time cannot be change as "measurment" cannot be length, width an/or depth

DJA

 

[Oli]

Change is what happens to the other dimensions as time proceeds.

So walls in a building get further apart because dimensions change?

The vase with it's three dimensions changes as does the wave.

But the changes in both are not the same. And both are explained by something other than “indeterminacy”.

The flow of electrons in a lighting bolt chages as it equalizes potential. Channge occurs in three dimensional objects and energy.

See previous two answers.

It is not possible to have something with three dimensions exist without time or without change. Without those other two dimensions, the 3 dimensional object would not exist. It is the same with energy, although energy lacks the other dimensions.

Is it not? How so?

A peppermint stick in the rain gradually melts. If you see it when it's half gone, it has been raining for some time. The time it has been raining is not change, but what happened to the Peppermint stick is.

Without the rain the stick wouldn’t melt. So rain is change?

All objects and things in the cosmos (or creation if you prefer) have the dimension of change.

You still have to demonstrate this.

Let me ask you this. If there were no stars, no planets, no subways, no celestial objects and no energy would time exist? Certainly change would not as there would be nothing to change. If time were change, it would not be possible to think of it as separate from any existing thing.

If there is nothing there is nothing. You’ve just said there would be no change and no time. How are they different?

But in our minds, it is possble to imagine the passage of time abstractly without thinking of any change. I must get to my plane by 7:00 I hope I won;t be late coming home tonight. Three minutes is a measurment we can think of as is three meters.

And in that time things will change.

We have devices made to measure all of these dimensions. We also know that when I drink my orange juice this morning the glass will be empty. You don't know how long it will take you to drink this but you do know that the dimentions of the juice itself will change inthe glass. The full glass compared to the empty is an example of change. The change can be MEASURED by the other four dimentions together. Those measurements will show the change in the juice. But the change in the juice is not time itself, nor is it any one of the other three dimensions. It is itself-change.

Um, movement of the orange juice from one location to another. Not change per se in the orange juice itself.

 

[DJA]

Oli,
The orange juice, although a fluid, remains orange juice just as a board remains a board when it is sawed in two. Although the board is split, the measurements now are different as it is made into two objects. If I drink the orange juice certailny the orange juiec will change during digestion. But even before that it will change in length, width and heigth. Even if I pour the orange juice into a bigger glass there is change in the dimensions of length, width and heigth. Because I HAVE changes in length width and heigth does not mean change IS length, width and height no more than it means time is change. Change is a dimension of everything. Even if the orange juice were to stay in the glass it would be changing, albeit gradually as the or oange juice's chemical composition changes as the result of action upon it by bacteria.
DJA

 

[Oli]

The orange juice, although a fluid,

Liquid.

remains orange juice just as a board remains a board when it is sawed in two. Although the board is split, the measurements now are different as it is made into two objects. If I drink the orange juice certailny the orange juiec will change during digestion. But even before that it will change in length, width and heigth. Even if I pour the orange juice into a bigger glass there is change in the dimensions of length, width and heigth.

No, the QUANTITY of the orange juice will change, not the orange qua orange juice (until digestion starts).

Because I HAVE changes in length width and heigth does not mean change IS length, width and height no more than it means time is change. Change is a dimension of everything. Even if the orange juice were to stay in the glass it would be changing, albeit gradually as the or oange juice's chemical composition changes as the result of action upon it by bacteria.

And you still haven't defined change in measurable terms - everything changes in different ways.

 

[DJA]

Oli,
I think that rather proving that all things change is true it would have to be proven that there is something that does NOT change. All things that exist (save for the immaterial things such as ideas, numbers, reflection. etc.) have change and thus indetermination: that is that they are not the same from moment to moment.
If nothing exists, then there are no dimensions.
Can you look at it this way perhaps....
Put a plum on the railing of your back poarch. Now over time will you see changes to that plum. The changes to the plum can be obviously seen as it decays. But these changes happen to the plum. It's not time that changes, it's the plum. The changes to the plum happen as time passes, but the changes to the plum are not time, nor are they caused by time. The changes to the plum are simply that-they are changes. Because everything exists echanges, there is no difinitive determination as to what something is moment to moment. Therefore indetermination is a dimention of all things that exist. The length, width and depth of something, as in the plum, change as the plum undergoes its changes. These dimenstions are only measured at one point in the plums change during the time the plum changes. But time is not the change-the change happens to the plum.
I have to go now and look at rugs with my wife. Be back later to see your comments. Again, I thank you so much for continuing the discussion....both you andbha and original...........

DJA

 

[Oli]

I think that rather proving that all things change is true it would have to be proven that there is something that does NOT
change. All things that exist (save for the immaterial things such as ideas, numbers, reflection. etc.) have change and thus indetermination: that is that they are not the same from moment to moment.
Because one is not true the other must be?
Besides, I'm not claiming things don't change, I'm disputing that change is a dimension, especially since things change in measurably different ways.

Can you look at it this way perhaps....
Put a plum on the railing of your back poarch. Now over time will you see changes to that plum. The changes to the plum can be obviously seen as it decays. But these changes happen to the plum. It's not time that changes, it's the plum. The changes to the plum happen as time passes, but the changes to the plum are not time, nor are they caused by time. The changes to the plum are simply that-they are changes.

Dehydration. Decay.

Because everything exists echanges, there is no difinitive determination as to what something is moment to moment. Therefore indetermination is a dimention of all things that exist. The length, width and depth of something, as in the plum, change as the plum undergoes its changes. These dimenstions are only measured at one point in the plums change during the time the plum changes. But time is not the change-the change happens to the plum.

But since change AS change isn't measurable (because the changes can be explained by other things) then change itself isn't a dimension.

I have to go now and look at rugs with my wife. Be back later to see your comments. Again, I thank you so much for continuing the discussion....both you andbha and original...........

Pick a good one.

 

[andbna]

DJA I won't quote your numerous examples, but:
All of these changes can be measured without any 'indetermination' dimension already. So I ask again, how does it fit in, what does it do, and how can you prove its existance if we already have a working model without it?
All of your above examples cahnge only because of my perspective, and thus with the passage of time. Take away time, you take away the change. So, no evidence suppoting this 'indetermination' dimension.

Let me ask you this. If there were no stars, no planets, no subways, no celestial objects and no energy would time exist? Certainly change would not as there would be nothing to change. If time were change, it would not be possible to think of it as separate from any existing thing.

A wonderfull question. And the answer is, "no" time would not exist.

A mathematical abstraction of it would be:
If I do not have a function, does an x variable exist?
No it doesnt.

So time doesn not either.
Why? Well, can you prove that it would? No, because there would be no way to test it, and as soon as we introduced matter to test it, well then there wouldn't be nothing anymore now would there? And the only argueent for time existing in this scenario would be to say: it does because I cannot prove that it doesnt. That argument is a logical fallacy of Ad Ignorantium.
Thus this question is akin to asking "do unicorns and fairys exist?" (Now I dont mean that as an insult, I simply mean as far as proof goes, the two are in the same boat.)

but you forget that the video becomes part of film or part of a machine that does change every time it is turned on. The film or or images in,say a computer,will also change, albeit very slowly in the computer as they are acted upon by other forces.

Nay, I did not forget, infact, I thought you would say this, so I added, hoping to quell it, that it was an analogy not an example.
There is a key difference: I can say a Piano is like a Harp, both have many strings, but that doesnt mean I think a piano is played by plucking its strings.

What I am saying is: The universe from our perspective is like a video constantly playing forwards. But, that doesnt mean we need time, our other dimension still exist without it, just as a photograph does. But their would be no change in this universe.
So, if time is removed, so is change, but not the other dimensions. Therefore change is a product of time, and your 'indetermination' dimension is time.

There is nothing that I can think of that has permanance but God, the angels he created and our souls.

I can think of nothing that is not a part of our universe and therefore influenced by time. Therefore I to ocan think of nothing that has permanance.
If god has permamance, then it is because it is not part of our universe, logicaly as every religion I can think of cinsiders it to be this way.
But,
Where are you going with this? For this neither shows any proof of the existance in god, nor support for your 'indetermination' dimension.

-Andrew

 

[DJA]

Andrew,
I'm not sure of this-but are you saying that it is possible for things to exist without time?
It is true that if time were removed as a dimension change would not exist. Yet change exists as separate from time. Change happens to everything, whether it be dehydration,evaporation, erosion, combination, etc. The changes happen as time passes. But every thing has change as a dimension that CAN be measured by some means: there is less water when something dehydrates,less water in the pond when it evaprates,less rock above the river as it erodes from the wind, a compound when hydrogen is matched with oxygen to become water. There are, if not an infinite amount ways something can change, at lest many many ways. But the fact that there is change to everything and we can not only detect it, but measure the change we can determine that change is a dimension of everything as is the other four measurements of things that exist.
A video may be a representation of something, but it, as a video, is just that-some thing which is subject to change. Perhaps you are saying that if we have an image of something in our mind, THAT image is not subject to change. But such an image is immaterial and has no dimensions. If you recall, I said that immaterial things, while existing, have no dimension.
For instance-History. History exists, but history itself has no dimensions. I really should have been saying that all things that exist, except the immaterial, must have change. I may have been somewht misleading in that regard. For that, I apologize. But for the rest there are five dimensions that exist. The only ones that I can say that cannot be measured by all five are those that are energy. In regard to energy I see that time and change exist, but not with, heigth and depth.
The dimensions can be measued in different ways. Lenght with and heigth cand be measured by linear measurement. The measurements can in turn can be used to determine volume and other functions of geometry can determine square units or area, density and many other measurments of something. Mathematics and its branches are immaterial things in the reflective mind of the human. But what of when a red piece of cloth fades in the sun, a human ages, a tobacco leaf is cured. All of these things can use mathematics too to show change without changes to the three other dimensions. A leaf can burn, a fender rust, a finger freeze. These too are changes, both chemical and in state of matter. All these are ways of change. All these changes can be measured in different ways. Yet all these things change a dimension of all things that exist save that which is immaterial.
And yes I keep trying to use different examples to show change as a dimension with more explaination in the hope that I can make it clear to you what I am trying to show.
There are many ways to measure something to describe it. There are also many ways to measure things to describe change. These discriptions can give clarity to the actual composition of many processes, valuable substances, cures. The measurements themselves may lead to induced or manipulated change. But the measurements also measure change. And that brings me back to my original statement regarding the fifth dimension. Everything that exists is indeterminate (save the immaterial) indicating the demention of indetermination. I consider energy as an existing thing, not immaterial as matter and energy can be the same. (E=MC^2).

 

[andbna]

I'm not sure of this-but are you saying that it is possible for things to exist without time?

Yes that is what I am saying. And, without going into anything mathematical of physics related, a large majority of the population will agree with me simply because they beleive in god. (you yourself appear to and have said that god is timeless.)
However, my point is that 'something' in a universe could exist, but nothing would 'happen' to it. EDIT: Thank you Original for that wonderfull example below

A video may be a representation of something, but it, as a video, is just that-some thing which is subject to change. Perhaps you are saying that if we have an image of something in our mind, THAT image is not subject to change. But such an image is immaterial and has no dimensions. If you recall, I said that immaterial things, while existing, have no dimension.

No, the video and picture was simply a metaphor, however it has failed in its duty, so we may forget it.

For the rest of the post: I can agree that the rate[/] of change is a dimension, but not a spatial dimension, and therefore not the 'fith dimension' and not a time dimension as you say, and thus not of 4Dimensional Spacetime. and not part of the standard 3Dimensions of location.
What I mean here is, Energy is also a dimension but it is not one of the but it is not part of the 3D/4D views of the universe people mean when they talk about them.

Consider your leaf burning, now add another to a different fire, which consumed the leaf more slowly, would the change each leaf experienced be different (say if we measured it, would they be different values?)

If the above answer is 'yes':
You do say that change is also dependant on time thus, would your dimension not be the rate of change of an object?

-Andrew

 

[original]

I don't mean to deter you from answering other posts, but I wanted to say something in reply to this:

I'm not sure of this-but are you saying that it is possible for things to exist without time?

As was mentioned before, a static universe would have no measure of time. Think of a swinging pendulum. Even after the pendulum stops moving, it still exists.

 

[DJA]

Andrew,
No, something that exists changes, but changes can be quickl, slow or all the speeds in between. Change's units of measure can only be seen as to how the thing in existence is at one point compared to another. There is no more precise "unit of measurement" of change than this as the change may be measured in different ways. Becoming a compound is a change, taking on a new color may be another, growing and aging are yet others. Yet how would one measure the differences from one point to another in these cases. It could take many different types of measurements for some and a "qualitative" change (as in the case of color) for another. So change is a dimension that occurs in different ways and at differing speeds.
It is very interesting that you identify energy as another dimension. I don't think so as it(energy) is matter in a different form. While it is true that energy does not have spatial dimentions-there is a dimention of time and change to energy. Take the examples I gave of light energy. The farther one is from the light source, the lesser the intensity of the light.
Now I have to ask you to consider this with me......If light takes distance to change-does some energy also have a dimension of distance? I think that must be true.
This last post of your was great, it made a further refinement to the concept of indetermination and things that exist. Thanks, Andrew!
Original-Good to have you back today! Is a static universe that you refer to one where entropy has exhausted all expansion and/or contraction of both the universe and the objects in it? Or would movement still exist in a static universe?
DJA

 

[andbna]

If light takes distance to change-does some energy also have a dimension of distance? I think that must be true.

If it's a measurment of some property, it's a dimension. Thus in your light case, one could measure distance of some object from the source, intensity at the source, and intensity at the object of whatever.
If combined to form an equation, or graphed, one would say it were 3Dimensional because we are measuring 3 properties.

Now, when someone says our universe is 3/4D, obviously they do not mean that there is only 3 or 4 measurable properties in our universe (for there are probably infinite things to measure), what they mean is there are 3 Spatial Dimensions and one Time dimension. In string theory with talk of 11 or w/e dimensions, they mean there is 11 spatial dimension in our universe

So, in order for one to include "indetermination" as the 5th dimension it would have to be a spatial dimension or a time dimension (yes, one could have multiple time dimensions in theory.)

Now, what your describing as change to me sounds simply to be the differential of one measurment with respect to time. (this derivative is a dimension of its own )
For example, if we were measuring the change in an object's spatial location, it seems it would be part of your "change dimension" I would call this measured dimension speed. I could even measure the change of the speed, and call it acceleration. Heck, I could measure the change of the acceleration, and the change of that... ad nausium.
However, what is worth noting is while these are all changes, and thus all derivatives, they are all different dimensions
My primary point is thus: change is no single dimension, for as you have shown there are many different forms of change.

-Andrew

 

[DJA]

Change is a separate dimension as is any other dimension. Length is s sepate dimention, but because we can have many different lengths does not mean that each length is a separate dimension. There can be many different changes in something, but that does not mean that each change is a different dimension, only that since everything changes is many ways that change is a dimension of everything that exists that is not immaterial. Those that believe in God do not think of heaven as a sepate dimension, but something that exists apart from creation, including the dimensions of that creations.
Dimensions are not off the arrow or creation, but part of it. Creation continues to change, but any afterlife is a mystery insofar as a complete understanding of WHAT it is-that remains a mystery.
Dimensions are measurements of that which exists which is not immaterial. The change is a dimension of creation.

 

[Oli]

Change is a separate dimension as is any other dimension.

Yet to be shown.
And "change" as you describe it is not a single manifestation.

Length is s sepate dimention, but because we can have many different lengths does not mean that each length is a separate dimension.

Width and height are linear measures (like length), but dimensionally separate.

There can be many different changes in something, but that does not mean that each change is a different dimension,

So how do you tie rusting (cars) with dehydration (the plum) with fall in intensity (energy)?

Dimensions are measurements of that which exists which is not immaterial. The change is a dimension of creation.

You don't think some (many) dimensions are immaterial?

 

[DJA]

The immaterial is that which exist as concept only-for instance undestanding is immaterial, trust is immaterial,numbers are immaterial in concept.
All the changes you cite can be measured, but they are all changes showing a dimension of change.
I only separate dimensions for the purpose of understanding the different dimensions from each other.
There are of course many separate things in existence that change; and change in many ways measurable. Dehydration is not the only thing that changes in the plum losing water. It's three dimensional shape changes as it dehydrates. The chemical composition of the plum changes too. But the plum undergoes change, a dimension commomon to all existing things that are not immaterial.

 

[Oli]

The immaterial is that which exist as concept only-for instance undestanding is immaterial, trust is immaterial,numbers are immaterial in concept.

I know what immaterial means, but you stated:

Dimensions are measurements of that which exists which is not immaterial

Dimensions exist of immaterial things...

 

[andbna]

Change is a separate dimension as is any other dimension. Length is s sepate dimention, but because we can have many different lengths does not mean that each length is a separate dimension.

False analogy:
I cannot compare dehydration of a plum to the change in height of a ball.

Dimension, Latin: "measured out"

Your definition of change is incompatable with the attribute of 'dimension'. it simply doesnt fit any description, just like I cannot say my bicycle is an airfoil.

There can be many different changes in something, but that does not mean that each change is a different dimension

False, it does, unless those changes are of the same property (and if you say that change is that same poperty: that would be circular reasoning.)

Dimensions exist of immaterial things...

true Oli, thought i'd add that dimension's are purely immaterial (mathematical) concepts themselves.

but they are all changes showing a dimension of change.

Yes, but different dimensions of 'change'
Your reasoning is felaciouse and can be abstracted to look like this:
x is part of set z.
y is part of set z.
therefore x is y.
OR:
I have a red tea-shirt
I have a red car
Therefore my tea-shirt is my car.

Those that believe in God do not think of heaven as a sepate dimension

Why should they? Seems like the typical sci-fi confusion of universe/reality for dimension (ie. going to an alternate dimension/going to the fith dimension... neither makes sense.)

Dimensions are not off the arrow or creation, but part of it. Creation continues to change, but any afterlife is a mystery insofar as a complete understanding of WHAT it is-that remains a mystery.

First: what?
Second: the un-scientific/mathematic can not prove something scientificaly/mathematicaly. Dimension is purely mathematical and scientific(physical mainly).

But the plum undergoes change, a dimension commomon to all existing things that are not immaterial.

And derivatives are common to all functions, but they arent the same derivatives.

So it seems what you really need to do to get anywhere DJA, is to show how one can measure your definition of change.
-Andrew