Then does prayer work generally? It is a huge part of any Christian service. If it can't be shown to work statistically, why should people pray at all?
A Great Video Which Is Throws The Theory Of Evolution Out Of The Window
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prayer is totally dependent on what is being prayed for and the purity of the person praying - the way that xtianity is sometimes marketed to the less intelligent as a means to get rich certainly doesn't fit the bill - a pure devotee generally only prays for the opportunity to render service to god
BG 6.30 - For one who sees Me everywhere and sees everything in Me, I am never lost, nor is he ever lost to Me.
eg
“Even though liberation destroys the bondage of material existence, I have no desire for liberation, in which I would forget that You are the master and I am Your servant.” - hanuman
"My dear Lord, You are the deliverer of living entities from the hellish condition of materialistic life, but that does not matter to me. Whether I am elevated to the heavenly platform, or I remain on this earthly planet, or I am dispatched to the hellish planets…that does not matter at all to me. My only prayer is that at the time of my death I may simply remember Your two beautiful feet, which are just like the lotus flower fructifying during the autumn season." (King Kulaçekhara, Mukunda-mälä-stotra)
"O Lord Dämodara, although You are able to give all kinds of benedictions, I do not pray to You for the boon of impersonal liberation, nor for the highest liberation of eternal life in Vaikunthha, nor for any other, similar boon. O Lord, I simply wish that this form of Yours as baby Gopäla in Vrndävana may ever be manifest in my heart, for what is the use to me of any other boon besides this?" (Dämodarästaka 4).
The people praying in this experiment were devoted churchgoers, not atheists or scientists, they volunteered to pray for real sick people. I'm sure most of them were perfectly sincere. Why didn't it work?
spidergoat, there have been "prayer experiments" that have been scientifically challenged, with results supporting the effectiveness of prayer. Prayer is from the heart, and only God knows your heart.
Prayer, no matter who your praying for, benefits you, regardless of the person being prayed for.
Prayer, no matter who your praying for, benefits you, regardless of the person being prayed for.
Debate and competition. who is right and is wrong. I wish no harm on my brother and would not be smiling knowing him to be in a 'worse' place. opiate is not what I think of when I think of my belief in God. He has challenged us to be much better than we are, hardly an opiate.
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Of course you are right you know, it would be much easier to just have faith.[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of that phrase "take it easy"---I feel you 'bro!
And you know this how?
That is one aspect the scientists mentioned, God would know he is being experimented with, and might not go along with it.
I don't doubt that prayer works in other ways that have nothing to do with the supernatural, just like meditation and visualization.
This is a good point. God may be the exact analog of the superposition of a quantum particle. The instant you try to pin down (observe) some aspect of the particle you destroy the quantum "essence" of it. If you try to observe god (or fuck with him in any way) he appears to just not be there. It's beautiful.
To grow
No, no. Not why, how?
I gave indications why - the only prayer a sincere devoted person offers is the prayer to never forget god - if a person actually understands that god is all powerful and knowing, why would they be trying to bring things, like the fact that someone is sick, to gods attention?
Of course not all place of worship attendees fit such criteria, thus the general devotee of god has mixed desires.
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links?
What exactly does the heart do that is involved with prayer? Pumps blood to the brain?
You mean like mind over matter?
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/alternative/01/18/prayer.power.wmd/
prayer is spiritual
see above
river-wind
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IIRC, the long-term study that is being referenced as showing that people prayed for tended to do worse was started *because* of the positive findings of that 2000 study.
In other words, preliminary findings suggested that there was a statistical significance, so a broader study was then done to verify the findings. Not only did a more broad study not verify the original study, it showed that the original study (because of it's small sample size) was an anomaly.
When the results for the follow-up study were published, there was a ton of anticipation of the “confirmation of prayer” – after all, this would not just be some evidence for prayer, it was would backing evidence for existing evidence!! As close to proof as you can get in science!
If God will talk from a burning bush, or turn rivers red, or wipe out entire populations; why would he actively avoid verification of the success of prayer only the second time it was studied? That doesn’t make any sense.
That is God the Deceiver, not god the Loving Forgiver. Even beleivers should avoid that logical path, and accidentally paint thier God as a liar to his children.
In other words, preliminary findings suggested that there was a statistical significance, so a broader study was then done to verify the findings. Not only did a more broad study not verify the original study, it showed that the original study (because of it's small sample size) was an anomaly.
When the results for the follow-up study were published, there was a ton of anticipation of the “confirmation of prayer” – after all, this would not just be some evidence for prayer, it was would backing evidence for existing evidence!! As close to proof as you can get in science!
If God will talk from a burning bush, or turn rivers red, or wipe out entire populations; why would he actively avoid verification of the success of prayer only the second time it was studied? That doesn’t make any sense.
That is God the Deceiver, not god the Loving Forgiver. Even beleivers should avoid that logical path, and accidentally paint thier God as a liar to his children.
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The problem with such a basis (god should respond to our prayers) undercuts the fundamental principle that religion tries to establish - namely that god is the master and that we are the servant - in otherwords its not really the proper platform for establishing love, rather business enterprise, and god is not obligated to such endeavours
CC Madhya 19.167: "'When first-class devotional service develops, one must be devoid of all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic philosophy, and fruitive action. The devotee must constantly serve God favorably, as God desires.'
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But the act of prayer seems central to the J/C/I religions. Why should we do it if it doesn't work?
Prayer has its proper contexts for working - just like any other phenomena - like for instance if you want to test the flamability of wood it should not be tested on wet wood - so taking a wide cross section of theists, who tend to fall under the definitons of materialistic worshippers will not work for clearly establishing the function of prayer
BG 7.16
: "'O best among the Bharatas [Arjuna], four kinds of pious men render devotional service unto Me — the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.'
CC Madhya 24.95: "Materialistic devotees take to devotional service and worship God when they are distressed or in need of money. Those who are actually inquisitive to understand the supreme source of everything and those who are in search of knowledge are called transcendentalists, for they desire liberation from all material contamination.
CC Madhya 24.96: "Because they have a pious background, all four types of people are to be considered greatly fortunate. Such people gradually give up material desires and become pure devotees.
because the desires of the devotee are mixed, the results of their prayers are mixed
Its got nothing to do with being J/C/I, anymore than if a J/C/I decides to ignite wet wood
Is there any facet of the existence of God that is testable?
Faith in God, by its very nature is not meant to be proven. Faith is believing in something with no proof. Hence it does not belong near science.
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